Bridging the Business Education Gap with Ray Brown | 031

That is definitely an education gap in architecture

around business basics.

You may be an amazing designer, but if you're lacking in business education,

you'll struggle to fulfill your potential.

Today, I'm joined by Ray brown of Archibus to share his thoughts on the

foundational business education that you need to bridge that gap and sets your

architecture practice up for success.

In this episode of architecture business club, the weekly podcast for solo

and small firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build

a profitable future proof architecture business that fits around their life.

I'm the host, John Clayton.

And if you want a business in architecture that gives you more

freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment.

Then go to architecture, business club.com forward slash blueprint and downloads

the architecture business blueprint.

It's the step-by-step formula to freedom for architects, architectural

technologists and architecture designers.

And it's absolutely free as a gift from me.

Now let's discuss foundational business education.

Ray Brown is a business coach and entrepreneur.

He built and sold several businesses in Scotland before relocating to

Australia with his family in 2005.

Ray has coached everyone from startups to top executives of major companies.

He also chairs multiple company boards, but today his main focus is coaching

and mentoring architectural practices.

Ray recognized there was a significant gap in the education provided to

architects around running a business.

So he founded Archie biz to help.

Ambitious architects build profitable and sustainable businesses whilst

maintaining good design standards.

You can learn more about the Archibiz Business Foundations Program at archibiz.

global forward slash BFP.

Ray, welcome to Architecture Business

Oh, thanks, John.

Thanks for having me on your podcast.

Yeah,

it's always a privilege,

yeah, it's

really nice

to be invited, so thank you.

It's a pleasure to have you here.

I enjoyed our last conversation so much.

It would have been rude for me not to invite you on the show for another one.

Um, Ray, you're, you're originally from, um, Scotland.

Is it Aberdeen originally?

Is that right?

It is indeed the frozen north, I think they call it, and, uh, yeah,

I, I came to Australia looking for a bit more sun, and, my daughter was here

and wanted to start a sailing business.

The one, only thing that went wrong in that was Melbourne's

not the best place for weather.

It's a bit of a well kept secret.

Place to live.

But um, yeah, January through March

is pretty

good, but beyond that it

can

be a little bit up and down.

Too hot or too,

too

cold.

Yeah.

You must enjoy life in Melbourne though.

You wouldn't have stayed there for so many years otherwise.

Yeah.

Oh no, it's a great place to live.

I tend to try and keep that secret

going

If you.

don't mind.

Yeah, it's got lots of culture, lots of food,

and

we're lucky enough to have a place down at the beach, so we can be there

in an hour, and it's pretty good.

Oh, fantastic.

Well, I actually was fortunate enough to work in Melbourne for

a few months, many years ago.

It was during a year long backpacking trip and I ended up working for an

architectural practice in Melbourne.

I lived in North Melbourne, not far from the Victoria market and worked

for a practice out in East Kew.

And, uh, I absolutely loved it.

I had a great time there.

I was very tempted to stay, to be honest, it wasn't for the fact that

I was really excited about visiting a few of the countries that I'd planned

to visit afterwards, that I I may have ended up staying there a bit longer.

And then, um, I met who is now my wife, and then that kind of like scuppered

the, the plans to return to Melbourne.

So that kind of went, the plans were on hold for a while, and then they've,

they've been on permanent hold ever since.

So,

Yeah, no good.

Well, if

we continue our relationship, you never know, you might be out here

visiting and visiting the deck.

Drinking a beer would be nice.

I'd love to see you here.

Oh, that sounds awesome.

Yeah.

I'd love to do that.

We could talk about this for hours, I'm sure, but we're, we're actually

here to talk about foundational business education, specifically

for architecture practices.

So I'm really excited to hear about this.

So Ray, I want to ask what, what would you consider foundational

foundational

business education to be?

Yeah, but it's a phrase that we've worked really hard to get to.

We've been in business for five years and it's only really in

the last six months that we've

finally

honed in on the words.

And, and, you know, I would, I would encourage architects to see that that

process is not something that you

immediately say, this

is who you are.

This is where you fit in the market.

This is what you do.

It sometimes takes time.

So foundational business education for us is we aim to fill the gap that

architects tell us about every single day.

We don't get taught about business at university.

We are well meaning amateurs when it comes to business.

All of those things.

And unfortunately

that

leads into a little bit of what I call woe is me thinking.

If you don't have the education, you need to go out and get the education.

And the two analogies we use

One

is driving a car.

You wouldn't buy a car, jump in the car, and go out on the

road, because a car's dangerous.

You know, it's

dangerous to

your health, to your well being, all of those things.

And business is very similar.

You can lose a lot of money in business, you can become very

stressed, and really, it's a tough existence if you don't get it right.

But, the good news

is

that business is a simple game.

We used to use chess as an analogy and then we moved to drafts or

checkers, and someone, one of our clients said, look, the way you put

it across, it's not that difficult.

It's more like snakes and ladders.

So snakes and ladders take 10 minutes to explain.

Without that 10 minutes, it's just a mystery.

Ladders, reptiles,

colored

squares.

But you can teach a five year old snakes and ladders in probably 10 minutes.

And business is a bit the same.

with the basic rules of the game or the foundational business education, you're

really at high risk of coming unstuck.

I love that simple analogy there that you've given us.

I guess that starting a business in architecture, it

can be bad for your health.

If you, uh, potentially, if you don't know what you're doing and, um,

yeah, having some basic instructions to lay those foundations is, it's

got to be something surely that's essential really for, for everybody.

Yeah, I think

the, the, the, the

paradoxical thing

is

that architects are very tempted to go into their own business.

I think the statistics, something like 70 percent of architects end up

working for themselves in some form.

But the

problem is that they tend to drift into architecture.

You know, they do some work on the side, and then they get a

bigger job and a bigger job.

And

then

suddenly they

say,

I've got enough to pay my wages.

and I can leave

my job.

paid job.

The problem with that is you're not setting up a business.

You're creating a job for yourself.

It's only over time that people realize,

hold

on, there's more to this business thing

than

I thought.

And we meet a lot of disillusioned architects.

They love architecture.

They're passionate about the profession, but they just don't

understand the business side.

They don't make money.

In a lot of cases, they're paid less.

Then they would be paid working for somebody else.

And they've got that, probably their partner, telling them, you

know, why you're doing that when you

could

be working here and we could live a better lifestyle.

So, we see ourselves in the business of, um, reducing that stress

and teaching people the basics.

It really is not complicated.

I, I think that's so true.

I can.

I could really relate to that from my own personal experience as well,

that, um, I'm very much, I thought I'd, I had a business, but I'd really

just like recreated my old job.

It's taken quite a long time to, to realize that and to have had some business

education at the very beginning would have allowed me to take a shortcut and

to have been far more successful with my own small practice than, than I was.

Because I had to learn a lot of it from mistakes and, you know, making

the mistakes and then, you know, learning from them, but to have had

some foundational business education at the very beginning would have been.

Well, potentially transformational.

Yeah, well it is.

It's interesting

you use

that word transformational because we, again, we've been working on

how we explain to people what we do.

And it really is about process driven transformation.

That, that, that's the story.

There's a lot of, um, a narrative in architecture

covers

a whole lot of ground, but typically architecture is very hard.

nobody understands this.

It's hard to sell a value.

All of those things may be true, uh, but architects, they work in

a nice office, there's a need for the product, um, they don't have

factories, vehicles, uh, distribution, warehouses, you know, it's a pretty

simple business that you sell a service, you deliver that service well, and

you've effectively got a good business.

One of the fallacies we find, um, is that people think if I only had

more business, if I only had more projects, I would be fine, which

is

We need to fill the pipeline or we're going

to

run out of work.

And

it's, it's, it really is a

fallacy

because if you don't

have a well run business sitting behind those

projects, more work is probably

the last thing

that you need.

So building those solid

foundations

across really what we call the four P's, the practice, projects, the

people.

And the perception that that's really

the key

to running a good

business and understanding where are

the opportunities in each of those

areas to

sharpen the business and squeeze out a little bit more, uh, whether

that be revenue or profit.

It's, it's,

there's huge

opportunities in there.

Okay.

Well, we're going to dig into that in a little bit more detail in a moment.

Before we do, why, why is this not happening already

in our industry as standard?

Why are we not, why is it not just the standard that we do get educated in this?

Well, that's a great

question.

And there's a lot about architects and architecture.

I didn't understand.

And then conversation with one of my clients this afternoon,

and I was asking him, you told

me about

a new

house

he's designing

for himself.

And he did this, he said,

oh,

it looks

a bit like this, and there's a

slab.

And I said, why

is it going to peak?

Because all the architecture

I see is flat roofed and things.

And he was telling me about something that happened, I think it

was in the 1930s, the, the grease.

convention or something where there was

a real decision among

architects to leave the past behind.

And I think that kind

of thinking,

um, and that leadership from the top has been very

influential

in architecture.

And I was on a panel not so many years ago, uh, with someone,

I was speaking about business.

I had one of my clients there

and

I'm older architect.

let's put it like that.

Grabbed the

microphone at one point,

300 people in the audience, most of them struggling architects.

And

he said,

what you people have got to realize

is we're not an industry or

a business.

we're a profession.

Now, I don't know what that means.

I really do

not know what that means.

If you run your own business,

whether you like it or not, you're in business.

And

that smacks to me of

a

little bit of arrogance.

You know, it smacks of a little bit of

naivety.

And it's pretty, pretty

widespread in the industry that, that

the leadership and industry, and particularly the,

the, um,

industry

bodies, um,

we've had in

some cases, there's real exceptions and they're

quite happy to embrace what we do.

But.

Without naming names, there are certain big organizations that, that

either they see us as competition

or not required, or, um, we don't need to be taught about that

stuff.

We've been doing it a long time.

So that, that, we come

up against that

a lot.

But

we, to

be honest, we've stopped trying.

We deal with the people who, uh, we, we say

we're looking for

energized searchers, people who are looking For

a better

way, looking

for a

better outcome and we can deliver that better outcome.

So they're

happy, we're happy, and the ignorant mass is just,

well, good luck for them.

That's really interesting.

There's a couple of things in that there isn't there, but that thing of

some of those preconceptions that there are within the industry about, I think

we're often sort of led to believe that, you know, your work, like, just.

You show your, your great design work and that should just bring in the customers.

And it's like, there's this whole tortured artists thing of like, you know,

we, the, the, oh, well architectures is different to other businesses.

It's different.

It's not the same.

It's, you know, it's, it's interesting that that point you make that,

you know, business is business.

If you want to be successful in the architecture industry, you

want to have a successful practice.

Actually, it's a service business.

Whether you're serving your clients helping design a building for them,

or whether it's some other type of consultancy, it's, it's a service business

essentially, and, um, a lot of those business principles that should apply

universally, not, it's not like we're sort of, oh, well, it's architecture.

So it needs this totally, totally different way of doing things.

I think there is a kind of few misconceptions there about business

and architecture generally.

You used the word a few there.

I think it's a much bigger number than just a few.

People,

people buy things to solve

their problems.

Okay.

that, everything.

Not, not just architecture.

And typically people buy confidence.

That you're

going to solve my problem

and

perceived value that you're not going to overcharge for what you're doing.

And that's a, that

can be

a learning skill, how you

communicate that value.

So our business started and we were told to start a new business,

you need market research.

So we got 10 architects around the table and

my

business partner at the

time,

she and I sat down

and we brainstormed a few questions.

What

are we going

to ask these guys?

And the number one

question was,

what's the value of architecture?

We

were thrown out of that restaurant

at 1030

and we hadn't got to

question

number two,

okay, because they were

still arguing amongst

themselves and

big discussion.

If you're in

a, if you're in an industry

finds it that hard to communicate your value, and there

is value in architecture,

I'm

not sure I could argue that.

articulate

it properly, even after five

years of working with architects.

A lot of them are

different.

You need to position yourself properly as

an architectural practice.

And if you're not, if

you're one of the

many architects

around who puts

a picture of a building on the home page of the website and more

or less

says, if you want one of

those, come to us Then you're missing such a huge opportunity

to differentiate because

whether you like it or not,

there's a lot of people in your market who will be able to

deliver a very similar building

in the same

time,

same way, same process.

So you've got to really got

to find ways

of being a

better business.

It's such a

big opportunity for people is to

run a better business

so that you get more work and

you differentiate yourself from your competition.

Remember.

Don't forget to download the architecture business, blueprint the

step by step formula to freedom for architects, architecture, technologists,

and architecture designers.

You can grab the blueprint without any charge@architecturebusinessclub.com

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Now, back to the show.

So Ray, let's swing things back around then to, um, something

that we mentioned a moment ago.

I wanted to just dig in actually to your approach.

Like what is , the Archie biz approach to foundational business education?

Could you tell me a little bit more about

that?

I could, I could.

Um, you, you're like

a lot of people,

you,

you, you're

an architect

every day of the week and

you see that configuration letters.

Uh, but when you see

it in a different context,

you say arch instead of

arc.

No.

Architect.

Um,

I'll let you off

this time.

thanks Ray.

foundational business education, it's

just, which are the basics?

It's understanding

you What

are

the things related?

So there are

really.

three key areas, or four key areas that we speak about.

We

encourage people to meet once

a month to speak about the business, to

work

on the business, not in the

business.

It's,

it's what we

call a board meeting.

And architects, we're too small to have a board meeting.

But

then

when do you speak about the business?

The business, when do you speak

about strategy?

Oh,

well, we just have an occasional meeting of the directors or whatever.

So

start with finance.

Finance, again, it's a very simple process.

It's the business scorecard.

Where are you winning?

Where are you

losing?

What's going well?

What's not?

Um,

operations is the

second.

component.

That's how you do what you do.

So improving your utilization,

improving your budgeting,

improving your

management of projects.

Then we've got sales and

marketing.

Are you bringing in the right projects at

the right time, at the

right price?

And finally, this project.

So every business needs to have a range of

ongoing projects that may be new software or a new office

or

something that's a standalone

time limited project

that needs to get reported

somewhere.

So that monthly meeting allows

management

of the business or the leaders of the business

to look

at the finance.

to the operation, to the sales

and marketing,

um, and the progress in the various projects that are ongoing.

And, and what we

bring is we bring the templates to make that

overseeing really easy.

Okay.

There

are standard things in, in, in business.

The

one that I like the most, if I, if I was an architect, I would want to know

the six month rolling average of work secured.

So picking up work in an architecture

practice can be

lumpy, But if you take the last six months of work that you've

won, you divide

it by six

and you

record that number.

If

you record that every month, That will show you whether you're picking up enough

work to pay the bills in the future and

make a profit, or if

that's dwindling and you may have

to cut resources.

So it's all about

looking to the future, forecasting

and not looking to the past

in terms of how the business performs.

I love that.

There's a couple of great takeaways in there.

That's just a really useful.

KPI, Key Performance Indicator that, that any practice could use.

They could use that right away now.

Couldn't they?

That sort of six months of, um, projects secured.

I love what you're doing with the monthly board meeting can we just recap

on those different categories there?

So there was finance.

Finance

number one.

So finance

is the scorecard.

Are

we winning?

Are we losing?

Operations is

number two.

So the, the,

the,

the, there are KPIs

around

operations too.

utilization, throughput, all

of those things.

Um,

the, the amount of return that

we, strictly speaking, architects are in a very simple business in terms of business

model.

We buy ours

and we convert that into revenue.

There's a

lot of design stuff

within the middle.

Absolutely.

That's the

product.

But the business model is Buying hours, selling

hours.

So making that

conversion is the operations piece and

that needs

to be as efficient as possible.

And thirdly, we've got sales and marketing, which is bringing

in the right work at the right time through the business.

And the last one is projects, special projects to improve the business.

And again, that's, it's a really simple framework that you've

integrated that into the, the, the program that you have and, but also

there's something there that I think that if maybe there's somebody out there

that's listening to the show, and they're maybe thinking, I maybe don't have

the resources right now, or, you know, the money to invest in a, in a program

like, like raise that there's actually, they could actually create their own

board meeting, or maybe they could have a buddy that they could do that with.

They're not going to obviously get access to ready made frameworks

and that additional support.

But if you're looking at making a marginal improvement in what you're doing

already, that would be such a useful thing that people could start doing.

I think so, um, and much as I don't want

to disagree with the host,

but, you know, this

is, this

is not, that's an

investment.

It's not a cost.

And if you're short of money,

this program costs,

uh, 2, 000, 1, 990, whatever it is.

What

we find is a lot of architectural practice.

They'll spend much

more than that on, on photographs of a

building.

You know, they finish a building and it's going to be

done by a professional.

It's going to be laid out by, uh,

Somebody that sets

up the

stage to be photographed, I have nothing

against that,

but to put

that amount of value on that and not get the basic business education

and the way

to look at the

business education is you're going to get a

return on that investment

for the next five years, 10

years, 15 years, the number of people

who

have said to me that I wish I'd done your program,

um, 25 or

30

years ago, cause it would have

changed my life.

okay?

I'll be implementing stuff now, but had I known this back then, I would have Life

would have been a lot better.

So in terms of lifetime value,

we give

people lifetime access to

the product.

We're always adding to it.

We've got a community, we've got regular

forums.

It's

not, it shouldn't be, it should be

seen

as an investment and an

investment that people say,

I've

got to come up with a really

good reason for not doing

this.

Okay.

Why, why would I not do this?

And shortage of money

at that level

shouldn't

be a constraint

because that

If you can't raise that amount of money to do

the program or speak to us about

spreading the cost

over time,

uh, then you've got to look in the mirror and say, am I really

in business

here?

I, I can't disagree with anything that you've said there.

I guess I was using the example more with like startups in minds.

I've had some conversations recently with some people that are literally just

starting out which is an argument to say it would be the perfect time for them to

do the program, they don't have a pipeline of, of work already kind of lined up.

Maybe before they're, The ready to make the investment, which I appreciate is,

it's not actually a lot of money really in the world of running a business.

It's actually, as you say, you could spend more on a set of photos for a project.

I think it's a really

good, good conversation to be had.

And it's not me banging the drum and saying, buy our program,

buy someone else's program or

get, get yourself a business coach locally.

I'm not,

not in

the business.

We're not the

only

people doing this kind

of

work.

Uh, but I would

come back to that startup

week.

Sell the program to a lot of

startup

people

and

they're the ones who are going

to do

well,

okay, because

they're thinking from day one that they're a

business owner,

not an architect.

Exclusively.

Okay, the getting some work and winning some money

and

get get the systems and

processes set up at the beginning.

Okay,

business.

Business is

not a no cost startup.

Architects tend to take it like that, that you've

got some work and now

I can feed the family and do the stuff.

I

do think that

that

that

ends up with you having

a job.

Rather than a business.

So the choice is yours.

Are you going out on your own

to feed the family and do

your own work, which is obviously the driving, often the driving force,

or do

you really want to be in business and that business happens to be architecture?

What I hope is that by people that are in those early stages,

by Accessing things like this podcast and listening to these conversations

that we can help educate them in the value of investing in themselves and

their business and doing it as early as possible, because it can save so much

time, stress and hassle and set you up for success far sooner than otherwise.

Because I mentioned earlier that I made just about every mistake possible.

And it's because of that lack of business education at the very beginning.

But I think that the time when people probably needs that education

most, they have to kind of get to this realization point themselves

that, Oh yeah, I actually, I do need to invest in this thing.

People aren't always.

there when they need to be even though there's a solution there for them

that can help them out, they might not be at the point when they, um,

are quite ready to go ahead with it.

So I hope that, you know, people will listen to this and think, whoa, actually

this is a knowledge gap that I have.

And I'm actually listening to this.

I do need to do something about it and perhaps a bit sooner than

I would have done previously.

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.

I think there is

a, there is a movement

around.

Okay.

We shouldn't have been able to set up Archibus five years ago

and be

virtually the only people

that we think who are providing a practical, holistic, systems

based program

specifically for

architects.

Okay.

There's lots

of.

People out there, there are lots

of

webinars, there's lots of courses, there's

lots of things.

Typically what happens is

that you attend a course, and then you come back tomorrow into a

business that's really working hard.

And, you

know, when do

you find time to

put it in?

And how do I reconcile the financial

advice I'm getting with the marketing advice I'm

getting?

And what we

think we bring to the party is, this is how to set priorities, and this is how to

really evolve

your business

in.

the right direction.

This one, uh, one hour meeting a month, one and a half hours

at the very most.

And what

we say is if, if

you

make five decisions every month, that improves your business, that's 60

in a year.

That

will transform your business.

That's, that's process

driven transformation in action.

So there's no magic wand.

This is not a unicorn.

We

have lots of

clients who were losing money, making money, making

a little, losing a little.

And now the target that we set our clients is 15 to 20 percent net profit.

After a salary

is paid

to the, at a market rate paid to the people working in it, including

the owners.

So if you're not getting 15 to 20 percent

return on your investment

and creating employment and the work you're doing

in the market, you really need to, as

I

say, look in

the mirror and say, am

I running a real business or is

this something that needs work?

There's a misconception there with, with, with having a business or

running a business or being in business.

We often say that we run a business, whereas actually you've created a job.

You might be in business, but you don't necessarily have a business.

And that's an interesting distinction there, um, which I just wanted

to point Pick up on, cause it has come up on, on other occasions

as well in the conversations.

That's been really interesting, Ray.

Thanks for talking us through that.

I guess I want to try and round things up now.

What, what'd be the main thing that you'd like everyone to take

away from this conversation?

Well, I

suppose beyond getting

some foundational business education, if you want one

specific thing,

it would be around financial

literacy.

And that, that's something

that, that architects will say, I don't want to be

an accountant.

And that's not, I'm an architect.

And, um,

I was

38 and had

three businesses and

I really didn't know the difference

between a profit and loss in a balance sheet.

We

cover that in the program.

And when I used to be running courses for, for

fairly senior managers, I would say,

do you want me to go through the basics of

finance?

And most people said yes, because you don't get taught that And your accountant

with the best will in the world.

Accountants are not.

Very good teachers.

You don't see that as part of the role.

They're about

accuracy

and all that stuff.

So

getting some financial literacy

at a basic level, so you know regularly how

your business is performing, both

forecasting and historically.

So you want early warning, you

want what we call lead indicators, not

lag indicators, not

something that tells you where you've been in the past.

Something that

says, I've got a pretty good feel for where we'll be in six months

time or a year.

so that would be

my key.

And

that would be the same

advice to any business owner.

If you don't have basic

financial literacy, um, then you really are missing a big piece of the

jigsaw.

Brilliant.

Sage advice.

Ray, was there anything else that you, you wanted to add that we, we haven't covered?

Oh,

that's

a great

question and we've covered a lot and

I'm

a

very passionate, hope it's come across that I am passionate about helping

architects

and I'm just so glad that, um, there seems to

be a groundswell of recognition that this is required, you

know, particularly from some of the younger leaders

in, uh, in architecture, and

I would just encourage

everybody to reach out

and not necessarily

buy

something tomorrow, but find out what they're not buying.

okay, find out what

they're missing.

and

not

perpetuate this architecture

is different, you know, nobody understands this life's hard.

Nobody

wants to hear that story.

I want to speak

to, There are plenty of successful, profitable

architectural businesses out there

and we deal with a lot of them.

So I, I,

I have no

time for the doom and gloom

stories.

Oh, absolutely not.

There's too much negativity out there already.

We don't need any more of that, do we?

I like to kind of concentrate on the positive side of things.

And there are a lot of positive things that we can talk about.

So, um, yeah, thanks.

So thank you so much, Ray.

There's one other question that I wanted to ask and it's

nothing to do with architecture.

Just a regular question.

I like to ask all of the guests.

I, I love to travel and discover new places.

And I just wondered if you could tell me about One of your favorite

places and what you love about it.

Oh,

Well, I think if people look up,

uh, a place called Mount Martha on, which I now

write a Melbourne,

um, we're fortunate enough to go down

there most weekends.

It's got the most beautiful beach, and

the

beach is,

um, a row

of very

colourful beach boxes.

The, the beach is pristine.

Uh, when we bought our place down there, it was pristine.

pretty

unknown.

It's getting a little bit more

popular

now,

but

I've traveled

many places and

been on many beaches,

but

none

of them match up

to

Mount Martha on the Mornington Peninsula.

And the extra bit

on that is that

within 25 minutes of my

house,

there are 65 vineyards.

So there's

plenty, plenty of wine tasting and lunches

to be had around the peninsula.

So great place.

Great place to be.

that sounds fantastic.

Ray, thanks again.

Thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing your expertise with us.

I really appreciate it.

Could you let everybody know where is the best place to connect with you

online if they want to get in touch?

Yep, happy

to,

you can find me on

LinkedIn, um, Ray Brown, uh, with Archibiz,

or my email address is ray at

archibiz, uh,

dot global.

So I

would encourage you to go and check out the business foundations program

or reach out to me

directly.

I'm

quite happy to

have a chat, always up

for a zoom call, speak about architectural

business and how we

can

help.

Brilliant.

And can you please remind everyone, um, the, the web address for the

business foundations program?

Can you remind everyone of that, please?

Archibiz dot global

forward slash

BFP.

That's brilliant.

Thanks so much, Ray.

Pleasure.

Thanks for inviting

me.

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Remember.

Running your architecture business.

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This is architecture business club.