Bridging the Business Education Gap with Ray Brown | 031
In this episode, Jon chats with Ray Brown, a business coach, and entrepreneur who specialises in mentoring architectural practices through his organisation, ArchiBiz. The discussion highlights the significant gap in business education for architects and introduces foundational strategies to build profitable and sustainable businesses without compromising on design standards. Ray Brown shares insights from his journey from building and selling businesses in Scotland to coaching startups and top executives in Australia. The focus is on essential business education for architects, including finance, operations, sales, marketing, and project management. The episode emphasises the importance of financial literacy, strategic planning, and investing in foundational business education early in one's career to avoid common mistakes and set up for long-term success.
Today's Guest...
Ray Brown is a business coach and entrepreneur. He built and sold several businesses in Scotland before relocating to Australia with his family in 2005. Ray has coached everyone from startups to top executives of major companies. He also chairs multiple company boards. But today his main focus is coaching and mentoring architectural practices. Ray recognised there was a significant gap in the education provided to architects around running a business. So he founded Archibiz to help ambitious architects build profitable and sustainable businesses whilst maintaining good design standards.
Episode Highlights...
00:00 Introduction
02:07 Ray Brown's Journey from Scotland to Australia
04:01 The Importance of Foundational Business Education
06:31 Challenges Architects Face in Business
10:00 The Misconceptions of Architecture as a Business
15:45 The ArchiBiz Approach
17:44 Unlocking Business Success for Architects
18:02 The Power of Forecasting in Architecture
18:53 Monthly Board Meeting Insights
19:51 Investing in Your Architectural Practice
27:28 The Importance of Financial Literacy
28:50 Final Thoughts and Advice
30:02 Favorite Travel Destinations
Key Takeaways...
👉 Foundational business education is essential for bridging the gap between architectural skills and business acumen.
👉 Ambitious architects can build profitable and sustainable businesses while maintaining high design standards through the right coaching and mentoring.
👉 Financial literacy is key to understanding your business's performance and forecasting future trends.
👉 Process-driven transformation, achieved through regular small improvements, can have a significant impact on business success.
👉 It's important to understand the basics of finance, operations, sales, marketing, and project management for running a smooth architectural practice.
👉 Investing in business education and mentorship, like the ArchiBiz Business Foundations Program, can provide substantial returns by equipping architects with essential business running skills.
👉 Changing the mindset from just being an architect to being a business owner specializing in architecture is necessary, recognising that architectural practices are businesses requiring strategic management to thrive.
Links Mentioned In The Episode...
ArchiBiz Business Foundations Program
—--
👇 Click the link below to grab the Architecture Business Blueprint 🎁
It’s the FREE step-by-step formula to freedom for architects, architectural technologists, and architectural designers.
https://architecturebusinessclub.com/blueprint
—--
👇 Join the waitlist & chat group for our Community & Mastermind (for FREE)🎁
https://architecturebusinessclub.com/waitlist
👇 And if you enjoyed this episode…
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👇 Follow or Connect with Jon on LinkedIn at...
00:00 - Introduction
02:07 - Ray Brown's Journey from Scotland to Australia
04:01 - The Importance of Foundational Business Education
06:31 - Challenges Architects Face in Business
10:00 - The Misconceptions of Architecture as a Business
15:45 - The ArchiBiz Approach
17:44 - Unlocking Business Success for Architects
18:02 - The Power of Forecasting in Architecture
18:53 - Monthly Board Meeting Insights
19:51 - Investing in Your Architectural Practice
27:28 - The Importance of Financial Literacy
28:50 - Final Thoughts and Advice
30:02 - Favorite Travel Destinations
Jon Clayton:
That is definitely an education gap in architecture
Jon Clayton:
around business basics.
Jon Clayton:
You may be an amazing designer, but if you're lacking in business education,
Jon Clayton:
you'll struggle to fulfill your potential.
Jon Clayton:
Today, I'm joined by Ray brown of Archibus to share his thoughts on the
Jon Clayton:
foundational business education that you need to bridge that gap and sets your
Jon Clayton:
architecture practice up for success.
Jon Clayton:
In this episode of architecture business club, the weekly podcast for solo
Jon Clayton:
and small firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build
Jon Clayton:
a profitable future proof architecture business that fits around their life.
Jon Clayton:
I'm the host, John Clayton.
Jon Clayton:
And if you want a business in architecture that gives you more
Jon Clayton:
freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment.
Jon Clayton:
Then go to architecture, business club.com forward slash blueprint and downloads
Jon Clayton:
the architecture business blueprint.
Jon Clayton:
It's the step-by-step formula to freedom for architects, architectural
Jon Clayton:
technologists and architecture designers.
Jon Clayton:
And it's absolutely free as a gift from me.
Jon Clayton:
Now let's discuss foundational business education.
Jon Clayton:
Ray Brown is a business coach and entrepreneur.
Jon Clayton:
He built and sold several businesses in Scotland before relocating to
Jon Clayton:
Australia with his family in 2005.
Jon Clayton:
Ray has coached everyone from startups to top executives of major companies.
Jon Clayton:
He also chairs multiple company boards, but today his main focus is coaching
Jon Clayton:
and mentoring architectural practices.
Jon Clayton:
Ray recognized there was a significant gap in the education provided to
Jon Clayton:
architects around running a business.
Jon Clayton:
So he founded Archie biz to help.
Jon Clayton:
Ambitious architects build profitable and sustainable businesses whilst
Jon Clayton:
maintaining good design standards.
Jon Clayton:
You can learn more about the Archibiz Business Foundations Program at archibiz.
Jon Clayton:
global forward slash BFP.
Jon Clayton:
Ray, welcome to Architecture Business
Ray Brown:
Oh, thanks, John.
Ray Brown:
Thanks for having me on your podcast.
Ray Brown:
Yeah,
Ray Brown:
it's always a privilege,
Ray Brown:
yeah, it's
Ray Brown:
really nice
Ray Brown:
to be invited, so thank you.
Jon Clayton:
It's a pleasure to have you here.
Jon Clayton:
I enjoyed our last conversation so much.
Jon Clayton:
It would have been rude for me not to invite you on the show for another one.
Jon Clayton:
Um, Ray, you're, you're originally from, um, Scotland.
Jon Clayton:
Is it Aberdeen originally?
Jon Clayton:
Is that right?
Ray Brown:
It is indeed the frozen north, I think they call it, and, uh, yeah,
Ray Brown:
I, I came to Australia looking for a bit more sun, and, my daughter was here
Ray Brown:
and wanted to start a sailing business.
Ray Brown:
The one, only thing that went wrong in that was Melbourne's
Ray Brown:
not the best place for weather.
Ray Brown:
It's a bit of a well kept secret.
Ray Brown:
Place to live.
Ray Brown:
But um, yeah, January through March
Ray Brown:
is pretty
Ray Brown:
good, but beyond that it
Ray Brown:
can
Ray Brown:
be a little bit up and down.
Ray Brown:
Too hot or too,
Ray Brown:
too
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cold.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah.
Jon Clayton:
You must enjoy life in Melbourne though.
Jon Clayton:
You wouldn't have stayed there for so many years otherwise.
Ray Brown:
Yeah.
Ray Brown:
Oh no, it's a great place to live.
Ray Brown:
I tend to try and keep that secret
Ray Brown:
going
Ray Brown:
If you.
Ray Brown:
don't mind.
Ray Brown:
Yeah, it's got lots of culture, lots of food,
Ray Brown:
and
Ray Brown:
we're lucky enough to have a place down at the beach, so we can be there
Ray Brown:
in an hour, and it's pretty good.
Jon Clayton:
Oh, fantastic.
Jon Clayton:
Well, I actually was fortunate enough to work in Melbourne for
Jon Clayton:
a few months, many years ago.
Jon Clayton:
It was during a year long backpacking trip and I ended up working for an
Jon Clayton:
architectural practice in Melbourne.
Jon Clayton:
I lived in North Melbourne, not far from the Victoria market and worked
Jon Clayton:
for a practice out in East Kew.
Jon Clayton:
And, uh, I absolutely loved it.
Jon Clayton:
I had a great time there.
Jon Clayton:
I was very tempted to stay, to be honest, it wasn't for the fact that
Jon Clayton:
I was really excited about visiting a few of the countries that I'd planned
Jon Clayton:
to visit afterwards, that I I may have ended up staying there a bit longer.
Jon Clayton:
And then, um, I met who is now my wife, and then that kind of like scuppered
Jon Clayton:
the, the plans to return to Melbourne.
Jon Clayton:
So that kind of went, the plans were on hold for a while, and then they've,
Jon Clayton:
they've been on permanent hold ever since.
Jon Clayton:
So,
Ray Brown:
Yeah, no good.
Ray Brown:
Well, if
Ray Brown:
we continue our relationship, you never know, you might be out here
Ray Brown:
visiting and visiting the deck.
Ray Brown:
Drinking a beer would be nice.
Ray Brown:
I'd love to see you here.
Jon Clayton:
Oh, that sounds awesome.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah.
Jon Clayton:
I'd love to do that.
Jon Clayton:
We could talk about this for hours, I'm sure, but we're, we're actually
Jon Clayton:
here to talk about foundational business education, specifically
Jon Clayton:
for architecture practices.
Jon Clayton:
So I'm really excited to hear about this.
Jon Clayton:
So Ray, I want to ask what, what would you consider foundational
Jon Clayton:
foundational
Jon Clayton:
business education to be?
Ray Brown:
Yeah, but it's a phrase that we've worked really hard to get to.
Ray Brown:
We've been in business for five years and it's only really in
Ray Brown:
the last six months that we've
Ray Brown:
finally
Ray Brown:
honed in on the words.
Ray Brown:
And, and, you know, I would, I would encourage architects to see that that
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process is not something that you
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immediately say, this
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is who you are.
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This is where you fit in the market.
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This is what you do.
Ray Brown:
It sometimes takes time.
Ray Brown:
So foundational business education for us is we aim to fill the gap that
Ray Brown:
architects tell us about every single day.
Ray Brown:
We don't get taught about business at university.
Ray Brown:
We are well meaning amateurs when it comes to business.
Ray Brown:
All of those things.
Ray Brown:
And unfortunately
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that
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leads into a little bit of what I call woe is me thinking.
Ray Brown:
If you don't have the education, you need to go out and get the education.
Ray Brown:
And the two analogies we use
Ray Brown:
One
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is driving a car.
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You wouldn't buy a car, jump in the car, and go out on the
Ray Brown:
road, because a car's dangerous.
Ray Brown:
You know, it's
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dangerous to
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your health, to your well being, all of those things.
Ray Brown:
And business is very similar.
Ray Brown:
You can lose a lot of money in business, you can become very
Ray Brown:
stressed, and really, it's a tough existence if you don't get it right.
Ray Brown:
But, the good news
Ray Brown:
is
Ray Brown:
that business is a simple game.
Ray Brown:
We used to use chess as an analogy and then we moved to drafts or
Ray Brown:
checkers, and someone, one of our clients said, look, the way you put
Ray Brown:
it across, it's not that difficult.
Ray Brown:
It's more like snakes and ladders.
Ray Brown:
So snakes and ladders take 10 minutes to explain.
Ray Brown:
Without that 10 minutes, it's just a mystery.
Ray Brown:
Ladders, reptiles,
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colored
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squares.
Ray Brown:
But you can teach a five year old snakes and ladders in probably 10 minutes.
Ray Brown:
And business is a bit the same.
Ray Brown:
with the basic rules of the game or the foundational business education, you're
Ray Brown:
really at high risk of coming unstuck.
Jon Clayton:
I love that simple analogy there that you've given us.
Jon Clayton:
I guess that starting a business in architecture, it
Jon Clayton:
can be bad for your health.
Jon Clayton:
If you, uh, potentially, if you don't know what you're doing and, um,
Jon Clayton:
yeah, having some basic instructions to lay those foundations is, it's
Jon Clayton:
got to be something surely that's essential really for, for everybody.
Ray Brown:
Yeah, I think
Ray Brown:
the, the, the, the
Ray Brown:
paradoxical thing
Ray Brown:
is
Ray Brown:
that architects are very tempted to go into their own business.
Ray Brown:
I think the statistics, something like 70 percent of architects end up
Ray Brown:
working for themselves in some form.
Ray Brown:
But the
Ray Brown:
problem is that they tend to drift into architecture.
Ray Brown:
You know, they do some work on the side, and then they get a
Ray Brown:
bigger job and a bigger job.
Ray Brown:
And
Ray Brown:
then
Ray Brown:
suddenly they
Ray Brown:
say,
Ray Brown:
I've got enough to pay my wages.
Ray Brown:
and I can leave
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my job.
Ray Brown:
paid job.
Ray Brown:
The problem with that is you're not setting up a business.
Ray Brown:
You're creating a job for yourself.
Ray Brown:
It's only over time that people realize,
Ray Brown:
hold
Ray Brown:
on, there's more to this business thing
Ray Brown:
than
Ray Brown:
I thought.
Ray Brown:
And we meet a lot of disillusioned architects.
Ray Brown:
They love architecture.
Ray Brown:
They're passionate about the profession, but they just don't
Ray Brown:
understand the business side.
Ray Brown:
They don't make money.
Ray Brown:
In a lot of cases, they're paid less.
Ray Brown:
Then they would be paid working for somebody else.
Ray Brown:
And they've got that, probably their partner, telling them, you
Ray Brown:
know, why you're doing that when you
Ray Brown:
could
Ray Brown:
be working here and we could live a better lifestyle.
Ray Brown:
So, we see ourselves in the business of, um, reducing that stress
Ray Brown:
and teaching people the basics.
Ray Brown:
It really is not complicated.
Jon Clayton:
I, I think that's so true.
Jon Clayton:
I can.
Jon Clayton:
I could really relate to that from my own personal experience as well,
Jon Clayton:
that, um, I'm very much, I thought I'd, I had a business, but I'd really
Jon Clayton:
just like recreated my old job.
Jon Clayton:
It's taken quite a long time to, to realize that and to have had some business
Jon Clayton:
education at the very beginning would have allowed me to take a shortcut and
Jon Clayton:
to have been far more successful with my own small practice than, than I was.
Jon Clayton:
Because I had to learn a lot of it from mistakes and, you know, making
Jon Clayton:
the mistakes and then, you know, learning from them, but to have had
Jon Clayton:
some foundational business education at the very beginning would have been.
Jon Clayton:
Well, potentially transformational.
Ray Brown:
Yeah, well it is.
Ray Brown:
It's interesting
Ray Brown:
you use
Ray Brown:
that word transformational because we, again, we've been working on
Ray Brown:
how we explain to people what we do.
Ray Brown:
And it really is about process driven transformation.
Ray Brown:
That, that, that's the story.
Ray Brown:
There's a lot of, um, a narrative in architecture
Ray Brown:
covers
Ray Brown:
a whole lot of ground, but typically architecture is very hard.
Ray Brown:
nobody understands this.
Ray Brown:
It's hard to sell a value.
Ray Brown:
All of those things may be true, uh, but architects, they work in
Ray Brown:
a nice office, there's a need for the product, um, they don't have
Ray Brown:
factories, vehicles, uh, distribution, warehouses, you know, it's a pretty
Ray Brown:
simple business that you sell a service, you deliver that service well, and
Ray Brown:
you've effectively got a good business.
Ray Brown:
One of the fallacies we find, um, is that people think if I only had
Ray Brown:
more business, if I only had more projects, I would be fine, which
Ray Brown:
is
Ray Brown:
We need to fill the pipeline or we're going
Ray Brown:
to
Ray Brown:
run out of work.
Ray Brown:
And
Ray Brown:
it's, it's, it really is a
Ray Brown:
fallacy
Ray Brown:
because if you don't
Ray Brown:
have a well run business sitting behind those
Ray Brown:
projects, more work is probably
Ray Brown:
the last thing
Ray Brown:
that you need.
Ray Brown:
So building those solid
Ray Brown:
foundations
Ray Brown:
across really what we call the four P's, the practice, projects, the
Ray Brown:
people.
Ray Brown:
And the perception that that's really
Ray Brown:
the key
Ray Brown:
to running a good
Ray Brown:
business and understanding where are
Ray Brown:
the opportunities in each of those
Ray Brown:
areas to
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sharpen the business and squeeze out a little bit more, uh, whether
Ray Brown:
that be revenue or profit.
Ray Brown:
It's, it's,
Ray Brown:
there's huge
Ray Brown:
opportunities in there.
Jon Clayton:
Okay.
Jon Clayton:
Well, we're going to dig into that in a little bit more detail in a moment.
Jon Clayton:
Before we do, why, why is this not happening already
Jon Clayton:
in our industry as standard?
Jon Clayton:
Why are we not, why is it not just the standard that we do get educated in this?
Ray Brown:
Well, that's a great
Ray Brown:
question.
Ray Brown:
And there's a lot about architects and architecture.
Ray Brown:
I didn't understand.
Ray Brown:
And then conversation with one of my clients this afternoon,
Ray Brown:
and I was asking him, you told
Ray Brown:
me about
Ray Brown:
a new
Ray Brown:
house
Ray Brown:
he's designing
Ray Brown:
for himself.
Ray Brown:
And he did this, he said,
Ray Brown:
oh,
Ray Brown:
it looks
Ray Brown:
a bit like this, and there's a
Ray Brown:
slab.
Ray Brown:
And I said, why
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is it going to peak?
Ray Brown:
Because all the architecture
Ray Brown:
I see is flat roofed and things.
Ray Brown:
And he was telling me about something that happened, I think it
Ray Brown:
was in the 1930s, the, the grease.
Ray Brown:
convention or something where there was
Ray Brown:
a real decision among
Ray Brown:
architects to leave the past behind.
Ray Brown:
And I think that kind
Ray Brown:
of thinking,
Ray Brown:
um, and that leadership from the top has been very
Ray Brown:
influential
Ray Brown:
in architecture.
Ray Brown:
And I was on a panel not so many years ago, uh, with someone,
Ray Brown:
I was speaking about business.
Ray Brown:
I had one of my clients there
Ray Brown:
and
Ray Brown:
I'm older architect.
Ray Brown:
let's put it like that.
Ray Brown:
Grabbed the
Ray Brown:
microphone at one point,
Ray Brown:
300 people in the audience, most of them struggling architects.
Ray Brown:
And
Ray Brown:
he said,
Ray Brown:
what you people have got to realize
Ray Brown:
is we're not an industry or
Ray Brown:
a business.
Ray Brown:
we're a profession.
Ray Brown:
Now, I don't know what that means.
Ray Brown:
I really do
Ray Brown:
not know what that means.
Ray Brown:
If you run your own business,
Ray Brown:
whether you like it or not, you're in business.
Ray Brown:
And
Ray Brown:
that smacks to me of
Ray Brown:
a
Ray Brown:
little bit of arrogance.
Ray Brown:
You know, it smacks of a little bit of
Ray Brown:
naivety.
Ray Brown:
And it's pretty, pretty
Ray Brown:
widespread in the industry that, that
Ray Brown:
the leadership and industry, and particularly the,
Ray Brown:
the, um,
Ray Brown:
industry
Ray Brown:
bodies, um,
Ray Brown:
we've had in
Ray Brown:
some cases, there's real exceptions and they're
Ray Brown:
quite happy to embrace what we do.
Ray Brown:
But.
Ray Brown:
Without naming names, there are certain big organizations that, that
Ray Brown:
either they see us as competition
Ray Brown:
or not required, or, um, we don't need to be taught about that
Ray Brown:
stuff.
Ray Brown:
We've been doing it a long time.
Ray Brown:
So that, that, we come
Ray Brown:
up against that
Ray Brown:
a lot.
Ray Brown:
But
Ray Brown:
we, to
Ray Brown:
be honest, we've stopped trying.
Ray Brown:
We deal with the people who, uh, we, we say
Ray Brown:
we're looking for
Ray Brown:
energized searchers, people who are looking For
Ray Brown:
a better
Ray Brown:
way, looking
Ray Brown:
for a
Ray Brown:
better outcome and we can deliver that better outcome.
Ray Brown:
So they're
Ray Brown:
happy, we're happy, and the ignorant mass is just,
Ray Brown:
well, good luck for them.
Jon Clayton:
That's really interesting.
Jon Clayton:
There's a couple of things in that there isn't there, but that thing of
Jon Clayton:
some of those preconceptions that there are within the industry about, I think
Jon Clayton:
we're often sort of led to believe that, you know, your work, like, just.
Jon Clayton:
You show your, your great design work and that should just bring in the customers.
Jon Clayton:
And it's like, there's this whole tortured artists thing of like, you know,
Jon Clayton:
we, the, the, oh, well architectures is different to other businesses.
Jon Clayton:
It's different.
Jon Clayton:
It's not the same.
Jon Clayton:
It's, you know, it's, it's interesting that that point you make that,
Jon Clayton:
you know, business is business.
Jon Clayton:
If you want to be successful in the architecture industry, you
Jon Clayton:
want to have a successful practice.
Jon Clayton:
Actually, it's a service business.
Jon Clayton:
Whether you're serving your clients helping design a building for them,
Jon Clayton:
or whether it's some other type of consultancy, it's, it's a service business
Jon Clayton:
essentially, and, um, a lot of those business principles that should apply
Jon Clayton:
universally, not, it's not like we're sort of, oh, well, it's architecture.
Jon Clayton:
So it needs this totally, totally different way of doing things.
Jon Clayton:
I think there is a kind of few misconceptions there about business
Jon Clayton:
and architecture generally.
Ray Brown:
You used the word a few there.
Ray Brown:
I think it's a much bigger number than just a few.
Ray Brown:
People,
Ray Brown:
people buy things to solve
Ray Brown:
their problems.
Ray Brown:
Okay.
Ray Brown:
that, everything.
Ray Brown:
Not, not just architecture.
Ray Brown:
And typically people buy confidence.
Ray Brown:
That you're
Ray Brown:
going to solve my problem
Ray Brown:
and
Ray Brown:
perceived value that you're not going to overcharge for what you're doing.
Ray Brown:
And that's a, that
Ray Brown:
can be
Ray Brown:
a learning skill, how you
Ray Brown:
communicate that value.
Ray Brown:
So our business started and we were told to start a new business,
Ray Brown:
you need market research.
Ray Brown:
So we got 10 architects around the table and
Ray Brown:
my
Ray Brown:
business partner at the
Ray Brown:
time,
Ray Brown:
she and I sat down
Ray Brown:
and we brainstormed a few questions.
Ray Brown:
What
Ray Brown:
are we going
Ray Brown:
to ask these guys?
Ray Brown:
And the number one
Ray Brown:
question was,
Ray Brown:
what's the value of architecture?
Ray Brown:
We
Ray Brown:
were thrown out of that restaurant
Ray Brown:
at 1030
Ray Brown:
and we hadn't got to
Ray Brown:
question
Ray Brown:
number two,
Ray Brown:
okay, because they were
Ray Brown:
still arguing amongst
Ray Brown:
themselves and
Ray Brown:
big discussion.
Ray Brown:
If you're in
Ray Brown:
a, if you're in an industry
Ray Brown:
finds it that hard to communicate your value, and there
Ray Brown:
is value in architecture,
Ray Brown:
I'm
Ray Brown:
not sure I could argue that.
Ray Brown:
articulate
Ray Brown:
it properly, even after five
Ray Brown:
years of working with architects.
Ray Brown:
A lot of them are
Ray Brown:
different.
Ray Brown:
You need to position yourself properly as
Ray Brown:
an architectural practice.
Ray Brown:
And if you're not, if
Ray Brown:
you're one of the
Ray Brown:
many architects
Ray Brown:
around who puts
Ray Brown:
a picture of a building on the home page of the website and more
Ray Brown:
or less
Ray Brown:
says, if you want one of
Ray Brown:
those, come to us Then you're missing such a huge opportunity
Ray Brown:
to differentiate because
Ray Brown:
whether you like it or not,
Ray Brown:
there's a lot of people in your market who will be able to
Ray Brown:
deliver a very similar building
Ray Brown:
in the same
Ray Brown:
time,
Ray Brown:
same way, same process.
Ray Brown:
So you've got to really got
Ray Brown:
to find ways
Ray Brown:
of being a
Ray Brown:
better business.
Ray Brown:
It's such a
Ray Brown:
big opportunity for people is to
Ray Brown:
run a better business
Ray Brown:
so that you get more work and
Ray Brown:
you differentiate yourself from your competition.
Jon Clayton:
Remember.
Jon Clayton:
Don't forget to download the architecture business, blueprint the
Jon Clayton:
step by step formula to freedom for architects, architecture, technologists,
Jon Clayton:
and architecture designers.
Jon Clayton:
You can grab the blueprint without any charge@architecturebusinessclub.com
Jon Clayton:
forward slash blueprint.
Jon Clayton:
And if you enjoy this episode, then please leave a five star review or
Jon Clayton:
rating wherever you listen to podcasts.
Jon Clayton:
Now, back to the show.
Jon Clayton:
So Ray, let's swing things back around then to, um, something
Jon Clayton:
that we mentioned a moment ago.
Jon Clayton:
I wanted to just dig in actually to your approach.
Jon Clayton:
Like what is , the Archie biz approach to foundational business education?
Jon Clayton:
Could you tell me a little bit more about
Jon Clayton:
that?
Ray Brown:
I could, I could.
Ray Brown:
Um, you, you're like
Ray Brown:
a lot of people,
Ray Brown:
you,
Ray Brown:
you, you're
Ray Brown:
an architect
Ray Brown:
every day of the week and
Ray Brown:
you see that configuration letters.
Ray Brown:
Uh, but when you see
Ray Brown:
it in a different context,
Ray Brown:
you say arch instead of
Ray Brown:
arc.
Ray Brown:
No.
Ray Brown:
Architect.
Ray Brown:
Um,
Ray Brown:
I'll let you off
Ray Brown:
this time.
Jon Clayton:
thanks Ray.
Ray Brown:
foundational business education, it's
Ray Brown:
just, which are the basics?
Ray Brown:
It's understanding
Ray Brown:
you What
Ray Brown:
are
Ray Brown:
the things related?
Ray Brown:
So there are
Ray Brown:
really.
Ray Brown:
three key areas, or four key areas that we speak about.
Ray Brown:
We
Ray Brown:
encourage people to meet once
Ray Brown:
a month to speak about the business, to
Ray Brown:
work
Ray Brown:
on the business, not in the
Ray Brown:
business.
Ray Brown:
It's,
Ray Brown:
it's what we
Ray Brown:
call a board meeting.
Ray Brown:
And architects, we're too small to have a board meeting.
Ray Brown:
But
Ray Brown:
then
Ray Brown:
when do you speak about the business?
Ray Brown:
The business, when do you speak
Ray Brown:
about strategy?
Ray Brown:
Oh,
Ray Brown:
well, we just have an occasional meeting of the directors or whatever.
Ray Brown:
So
Ray Brown:
start with finance.
Ray Brown:
Finance, again, it's a very simple process.
Ray Brown:
It's the business scorecard.
Ray Brown:
Where are you winning?
Ray Brown:
Where are you
Ray Brown:
losing?
Ray Brown:
What's going well?
Ray Brown:
What's not?
Ray Brown:
Um,
Ray Brown:
operations is the
Ray Brown:
second.
Ray Brown:
component.
Ray Brown:
That's how you do what you do.
Ray Brown:
So improving your utilization,
Ray Brown:
improving your budgeting,
Ray Brown:
improving your
Ray Brown:
management of projects.
Ray Brown:
Then we've got sales and
Ray Brown:
marketing.
Ray Brown:
Are you bringing in the right projects at
Ray Brown:
the right time, at the
Ray Brown:
right price?
Ray Brown:
And finally, this project.
Ray Brown:
So every business needs to have a range of
Ray Brown:
ongoing projects that may be new software or a new office
Ray Brown:
or
Ray Brown:
something that's a standalone
Ray Brown:
time limited project
Ray Brown:
that needs to get reported
Ray Brown:
somewhere.
Ray Brown:
So that monthly meeting allows
Ray Brown:
management
Ray Brown:
of the business or the leaders of the business
Ray Brown:
to look
Ray Brown:
at the finance.
Ray Brown:
to the operation, to the sales
Ray Brown:
and marketing,
Ray Brown:
um, and the progress in the various projects that are ongoing.
Ray Brown:
And, and what we
Ray Brown:
bring is we bring the templates to make that
Ray Brown:
overseeing really easy.
Ray Brown:
Okay.
Ray Brown:
There
Ray Brown:
are standard things in, in, in business.
Ray Brown:
The
Ray Brown:
one that I like the most, if I, if I was an architect, I would want to know
Ray Brown:
the six month rolling average of work secured.
Ray Brown:
So picking up work in an architecture
Ray Brown:
practice can be
Ray Brown:
lumpy, But if you take the last six months of work that you've
Ray Brown:
won, you divide
Ray Brown:
it by six
Ray Brown:
and you
Ray Brown:
record that number.
Ray Brown:
If
Ray Brown:
you record that every month, That will show you whether you're picking up enough
Ray Brown:
work to pay the bills in the future and
Ray Brown:
make a profit, or if
Ray Brown:
that's dwindling and you may have
Ray Brown:
to cut resources.
Ray Brown:
So it's all about
Ray Brown:
looking to the future, forecasting
Ray Brown:
and not looking to the past
Ray Brown:
in terms of how the business performs.
Jon Clayton:
I love that.
Jon Clayton:
There's a couple of great takeaways in there.
Jon Clayton:
That's just a really useful.
Jon Clayton:
KPI, Key Performance Indicator that, that any practice could use.
Jon Clayton:
They could use that right away now.
Jon Clayton:
Couldn't they?
Jon Clayton:
That sort of six months of, um, projects secured.
Jon Clayton:
I love what you're doing with the monthly board meeting can we just recap
Jon Clayton:
on those different categories there?
Jon Clayton:
So there was finance.
Ray Brown:
Finance
Ray Brown:
number one.
Ray Brown:
So finance
Ray Brown:
is the scorecard.
Ray Brown:
Are
Ray Brown:
we winning?
Ray Brown:
Are we losing?
Ray Brown:
Operations is
Ray Brown:
number two.
Ray Brown:
So the, the,
Ray Brown:
the,
Ray Brown:
the, there are KPIs
Ray Brown:
around
Ray Brown:
operations too.
Ray Brown:
utilization, throughput, all
Ray Brown:
of those things.
Ray Brown:
Um,
Ray Brown:
the, the amount of return that
Ray Brown:
we, strictly speaking, architects are in a very simple business in terms of business
Ray Brown:
model.
Ray Brown:
We buy ours
Ray Brown:
and we convert that into revenue.
Ray Brown:
There's a
Ray Brown:
lot of design stuff
Ray Brown:
within the middle.
Ray Brown:
Absolutely.
Ray Brown:
That's the
Ray Brown:
product.
Ray Brown:
But the business model is Buying hours, selling
Ray Brown:
hours.
Ray Brown:
So making that
Ray Brown:
conversion is the operations piece and
Ray Brown:
that needs
Ray Brown:
to be as efficient as possible.
Ray Brown:
And thirdly, we've got sales and marketing, which is bringing
Ray Brown:
in the right work at the right time through the business.
Ray Brown:
And the last one is projects, special projects to improve the business.
Jon Clayton:
And again, that's, it's a really simple framework that you've
Jon Clayton:
integrated that into the, the, the program that you have and, but also
Jon Clayton:
there's something there that I think that if maybe there's somebody out there
Jon Clayton:
that's listening to the show, and they're maybe thinking, I maybe don't have
Jon Clayton:
the resources right now, or, you know, the money to invest in a, in a program
Jon Clayton:
like, like raise that there's actually, they could actually create their own
Jon Clayton:
board meeting, or maybe they could have a buddy that they could do that with.
Jon Clayton:
They're not going to obviously get access to ready made frameworks
Jon Clayton:
and that additional support.
Jon Clayton:
But if you're looking at making a marginal improvement in what you're doing
Jon Clayton:
already, that would be such a useful thing that people could start doing.
Ray Brown:
I think so, um, and much as I don't want
Ray Brown:
to disagree with the host,
Ray Brown:
but, you know, this
Ray Brown:
is, this
Ray Brown:
is not, that's an
Ray Brown:
investment.
Ray Brown:
It's not a cost.
Ray Brown:
And if you're short of money,
Ray Brown:
this program costs,
Ray Brown:
uh, 2, 000, 1, 990, whatever it is.
Ray Brown:
What
Ray Brown:
we find is a lot of architectural practice.
Ray Brown:
They'll spend much
Ray Brown:
more than that on, on photographs of a
Ray Brown:
building.
Ray Brown:
You know, they finish a building and it's going to be
Ray Brown:
done by a professional.
Ray Brown:
It's going to be laid out by, uh,
Ray Brown:
Somebody that sets
Ray Brown:
up the
Ray Brown:
stage to be photographed, I have nothing
Ray Brown:
against that,
Ray Brown:
but to put
Ray Brown:
that amount of value on that and not get the basic business education
Ray Brown:
and the way
Ray Brown:
to look at the
Ray Brown:
business education is you're going to get a
Ray Brown:
return on that investment
Ray Brown:
for the next five years, 10
Ray Brown:
years, 15 years, the number of people
Ray Brown:
who
Ray Brown:
have said to me that I wish I'd done your program,
Ray Brown:
um, 25 or
Ray Brown:
30
Ray Brown:
years ago, cause it would have
Ray Brown:
changed my life.
Ray Brown:
okay?
Ray Brown:
I'll be implementing stuff now, but had I known this back then, I would have Life
Ray Brown:
would have been a lot better.
Ray Brown:
So in terms of lifetime value,
Ray Brown:
we give
Ray Brown:
people lifetime access to
Ray Brown:
the product.
Ray Brown:
We're always adding to it.
Ray Brown:
We've got a community, we've got regular
Ray Brown:
forums.
Ray Brown:
It's
Ray Brown:
not, it shouldn't be, it should be
Ray Brown:
seen
Ray Brown:
as an investment and an
Ray Brown:
investment that people say,
Ray Brown:
I've
Ray Brown:
got to come up with a really
Ray Brown:
good reason for not doing
Ray Brown:
this.
Ray Brown:
Okay.
Ray Brown:
Why, why would I not do this?
Ray Brown:
And shortage of money
Ray Brown:
at that level
Ray Brown:
shouldn't
Ray Brown:
be a constraint
Ray Brown:
because that
Ray Brown:
If you can't raise that amount of money to do
Ray Brown:
the program or speak to us about
Ray Brown:
spreading the cost
Ray Brown:
over time,
Ray Brown:
uh, then you've got to look in the mirror and say, am I really
Ray Brown:
in business
Ray Brown:
here?
Jon Clayton:
I, I can't disagree with anything that you've said there.
Jon Clayton:
I guess I was using the example more with like startups in minds.
Jon Clayton:
I've had some conversations recently with some people that are literally just
Jon Clayton:
starting out which is an argument to say it would be the perfect time for them to
Jon Clayton:
do the program, they don't have a pipeline of, of work already kind of lined up.
Jon Clayton:
Maybe before they're, The ready to make the investment, which I appreciate is,
Jon Clayton:
it's not actually a lot of money really in the world of running a business.
Jon Clayton:
It's actually, as you say, you could spend more on a set of photos for a project.
Ray Brown:
I think it's a really
Ray Brown:
good, good conversation to be had.
Ray Brown:
And it's not me banging the drum and saying, buy our program,
Ray Brown:
buy someone else's program or
Ray Brown:
get, get yourself a business coach locally.
Ray Brown:
I'm not,
Ray Brown:
not in
Ray Brown:
the business.
Ray Brown:
We're not the
Ray Brown:
only
Ray Brown:
people doing this kind
Ray Brown:
of
Ray Brown:
work.
Ray Brown:
Uh, but I would
Ray Brown:
come back to that startup
Ray Brown:
week.
Ray Brown:
Sell the program to a lot of
Ray Brown:
startup
Ray Brown:
people
Ray Brown:
and
Ray Brown:
they're the ones who are going
Ray Brown:
to do
Ray Brown:
well,
Ray Brown:
okay, because
Ray Brown:
they're thinking from day one that they're a
Ray Brown:
business owner,
Ray Brown:
not an architect.
Ray Brown:
Exclusively.
Ray Brown:
Okay, the getting some work and winning some money
Ray Brown:
and
Ray Brown:
get get the systems and
Ray Brown:
processes set up at the beginning.
Ray Brown:
Okay,
Ray Brown:
business.
Ray Brown:
Business is
Ray Brown:
not a no cost startup.
Ray Brown:
Architects tend to take it like that, that you've
Ray Brown:
got some work and now
Ray Brown:
I can feed the family and do the stuff.
Ray Brown:
I
Ray Brown:
do think that
Ray Brown:
that
Ray Brown:
that
Ray Brown:
ends up with you having
Ray Brown:
a job.
Ray Brown:
Rather than a business.
Ray Brown:
So the choice is yours.
Ray Brown:
Are you going out on your own
Ray Brown:
to feed the family and do
Ray Brown:
your own work, which is obviously the driving, often the driving force,
Ray Brown:
or do
Ray Brown:
you really want to be in business and that business happens to be architecture?
Jon Clayton:
What I hope is that by people that are in those early stages,
Jon Clayton:
by Accessing things like this podcast and listening to these conversations
Jon Clayton:
that we can help educate them in the value of investing in themselves and
Jon Clayton:
their business and doing it as early as possible, because it can save so much
Jon Clayton:
time, stress and hassle and set you up for success far sooner than otherwise.
Jon Clayton:
Because I mentioned earlier that I made just about every mistake possible.
Jon Clayton:
And it's because of that lack of business education at the very beginning.
Jon Clayton:
But I think that the time when people probably needs that education
Jon Clayton:
most, they have to kind of get to this realization point themselves
Jon Clayton:
that, Oh yeah, I actually, I do need to invest in this thing.
Jon Clayton:
People aren't always.
Jon Clayton:
there when they need to be even though there's a solution there for them
Jon Clayton:
that can help them out, they might not be at the point when they, um,
Jon Clayton:
are quite ready to go ahead with it.
Jon Clayton:
So I hope that, you know, people will listen to this and think, whoa, actually
Jon Clayton:
this is a knowledge gap that I have.
Jon Clayton:
And I'm actually listening to this.
Jon Clayton:
I do need to do something about it and perhaps a bit sooner than
Jon Clayton:
I would have done previously.
Ray Brown:
Yeah, no, you're absolutely right.
Ray Brown:
I think there is
Ray Brown:
a, there is a movement
Ray Brown:
around.
Ray Brown:
Okay.
Ray Brown:
We shouldn't have been able to set up Archibus five years ago
Ray Brown:
and be
Ray Brown:
virtually the only people
Ray Brown:
that we think who are providing a practical, holistic, systems
Ray Brown:
based program
Ray Brown:
specifically for
Ray Brown:
architects.
Ray Brown:
Okay.
Ray Brown:
There's lots
Ray Brown:
of.
Ray Brown:
People out there, there are lots
Ray Brown:
of
Ray Brown:
webinars, there's lots of courses, there's
Ray Brown:
lots of things.
Ray Brown:
Typically what happens is
Ray Brown:
that you attend a course, and then you come back tomorrow into a
Ray Brown:
business that's really working hard.
Ray Brown:
And, you
Ray Brown:
know, when do
Ray Brown:
you find time to
Ray Brown:
put it in?
Ray Brown:
And how do I reconcile the financial
Ray Brown:
advice I'm getting with the marketing advice I'm
Ray Brown:
getting?
Ray Brown:
And what we
Ray Brown:
think we bring to the party is, this is how to set priorities, and this is how to
Ray Brown:
really evolve
Ray Brown:
your business
Ray Brown:
in.
Ray Brown:
the right direction.
Ray Brown:
This one, uh, one hour meeting a month, one and a half hours
Ray Brown:
at the very most.
Ray Brown:
And what
Ray Brown:
we say is if, if
Ray Brown:
you
Ray Brown:
make five decisions every month, that improves your business, that's 60
Ray Brown:
in a year.
Ray Brown:
That
Ray Brown:
will transform your business.
Ray Brown:
That's, that's process
Ray Brown:
driven transformation in action.
Ray Brown:
So there's no magic wand.
Ray Brown:
This is not a unicorn.
Ray Brown:
We
Ray Brown:
have lots of
Ray Brown:
clients who were losing money, making money, making
Ray Brown:
a little, losing a little.
Ray Brown:
And now the target that we set our clients is 15 to 20 percent net profit.
Ray Brown:
After a salary
Ray Brown:
is paid
Ray Brown:
to the, at a market rate paid to the people working in it, including
Ray Brown:
the owners.
Ray Brown:
So if you're not getting 15 to 20 percent
Ray Brown:
return on your investment
Ray Brown:
and creating employment and the work you're doing
Ray Brown:
in the market, you really need to, as
Ray Brown:
I
Ray Brown:
say, look in
Ray Brown:
the mirror and say, am
Ray Brown:
I running a real business or is
Ray Brown:
this something that needs work?
Jon Clayton:
There's a misconception there with, with, with having a business or
Jon Clayton:
running a business or being in business.
Jon Clayton:
We often say that we run a business, whereas actually you've created a job.
Jon Clayton:
You might be in business, but you don't necessarily have a business.
Jon Clayton:
And that's an interesting distinction there, um, which I just wanted
Jon Clayton:
to point Pick up on, cause it has come up on, on other occasions
Jon Clayton:
as well in the conversations.
Jon Clayton:
That's been really interesting, Ray.
Jon Clayton:
Thanks for talking us through that.
Jon Clayton:
I guess I want to try and round things up now.
Jon Clayton:
What, what'd be the main thing that you'd like everyone to take
Jon Clayton:
away from this conversation?
Ray Brown:
Well, I
Ray Brown:
suppose beyond getting
Ray Brown:
some foundational business education, if you want one
Ray Brown:
specific thing,
Ray Brown:
it would be around financial
Ray Brown:
literacy.
Ray Brown:
And that, that's something
Ray Brown:
that, that architects will say, I don't want to be
Ray Brown:
an accountant.
Ray Brown:
And that's not, I'm an architect.
Ray Brown:
And, um,
Ray Brown:
I was
Ray Brown:
38 and had
Ray Brown:
three businesses and
Ray Brown:
I really didn't know the difference
Ray Brown:
between a profit and loss in a balance sheet.
Ray Brown:
We
Ray Brown:
cover that in the program.
Ray Brown:
And when I used to be running courses for, for
Ray Brown:
fairly senior managers, I would say,
Ray Brown:
do you want me to go through the basics of
Ray Brown:
finance?
Ray Brown:
And most people said yes, because you don't get taught that And your accountant
Ray Brown:
with the best will in the world.
Ray Brown:
Accountants are not.
Ray Brown:
Very good teachers.
Ray Brown:
You don't see that as part of the role.
Ray Brown:
They're about
Ray Brown:
accuracy
Ray Brown:
and all that stuff.
Ray Brown:
So
Ray Brown:
getting some financial literacy
Ray Brown:
at a basic level, so you know regularly how
Ray Brown:
your business is performing, both
Ray Brown:
forecasting and historically.
Ray Brown:
So you want early warning, you
Ray Brown:
want what we call lead indicators, not
Ray Brown:
lag indicators, not
Ray Brown:
something that tells you where you've been in the past.
Ray Brown:
Something that
Ray Brown:
says, I've got a pretty good feel for where we'll be in six months
Ray Brown:
time or a year.
Ray Brown:
so that would be
Ray Brown:
my key.
Ray Brown:
And
Ray Brown:
that would be the same
Ray Brown:
advice to any business owner.
Ray Brown:
If you don't have basic
Ray Brown:
financial literacy, um, then you really are missing a big piece of the
Ray Brown:
jigsaw.
Jon Clayton:
Brilliant.
Jon Clayton:
Sage advice.
Jon Clayton:
Ray, was there anything else that you, you wanted to add that we, we haven't covered?
Ray Brown:
Oh,
Ray Brown:
that's
Ray Brown:
a great
Ray Brown:
question and we've covered a lot and
Ray Brown:
I'm
Ray Brown:
a
Ray Brown:
very passionate, hope it's come across that I am passionate about helping
Ray Brown:
architects
Ray Brown:
and I'm just so glad that, um, there seems to
Ray Brown:
be a groundswell of recognition that this is required, you
Ray Brown:
know, particularly from some of the younger leaders
Ray Brown:
in, uh, in architecture, and
Ray Brown:
I would just encourage
Ray Brown:
everybody to reach out
Ray Brown:
and not necessarily
Ray Brown:
buy
Ray Brown:
something tomorrow, but find out what they're not buying.
Ray Brown:
okay, find out what
Ray Brown:
they're missing.
Ray Brown:
and
Ray Brown:
not
Ray Brown:
perpetuate this architecture
Ray Brown:
is different, you know, nobody understands this life's hard.
Ray Brown:
Nobody
Ray Brown:
wants to hear that story.
Ray Brown:
I want to speak
Ray Brown:
to, There are plenty of successful, profitable
Ray Brown:
architectural businesses out there
Ray Brown:
and we deal with a lot of them.
Ray Brown:
So I, I,
Ray Brown:
I have no
Ray Brown:
time for the doom and gloom
Ray Brown:
stories.
Jon Clayton:
Oh, absolutely not.
Jon Clayton:
There's too much negativity out there already.
Jon Clayton:
We don't need any more of that, do we?
Jon Clayton:
I like to kind of concentrate on the positive side of things.
Jon Clayton:
And there are a lot of positive things that we can talk about.
Jon Clayton:
So, um, yeah, thanks.
Jon Clayton:
So thank you so much, Ray.
Jon Clayton:
There's one other question that I wanted to ask and it's
Jon Clayton:
nothing to do with architecture.
Jon Clayton:
Just a regular question.
Jon Clayton:
I like to ask all of the guests.
Jon Clayton:
I, I love to travel and discover new places.
Jon Clayton:
And I just wondered if you could tell me about One of your favorite
Jon Clayton:
places and what you love about it.
Jon Clayton:
Oh,
Ray Brown:
Well, I think if people look up,
Ray Brown:
uh, a place called Mount Martha on, which I now
Ray Brown:
write a Melbourne,
Ray Brown:
um, we're fortunate enough to go down
Ray Brown:
there most weekends.
Ray Brown:
It's got the most beautiful beach, and
Ray Brown:
the
Ray Brown:
beach is,
Ray Brown:
um, a row
Ray Brown:
of very
Ray Brown:
colourful beach boxes.
Ray Brown:
The, the beach is pristine.
Ray Brown:
Uh, when we bought our place down there, it was pristine.
Ray Brown:
pretty
Ray Brown:
unknown.
Ray Brown:
It's getting a little bit more
Ray Brown:
popular
Ray Brown:
now,
Ray Brown:
but
Ray Brown:
I've traveled
Ray Brown:
many places and
Ray Brown:
been on many beaches,
Ray Brown:
but
Ray Brown:
none
Ray Brown:
of them match up
Ray Brown:
to
Ray Brown:
Mount Martha on the Mornington Peninsula.
Ray Brown:
And the extra bit
Ray Brown:
on that is that
Ray Brown:
within 25 minutes of my
Ray Brown:
house,
Ray Brown:
there are 65 vineyards.
Ray Brown:
So there's
Ray Brown:
plenty, plenty of wine tasting and lunches
Ray Brown:
to be had around the peninsula.
Ray Brown:
So great place.
Ray Brown:
Great place to be.
Jon Clayton:
that sounds fantastic.
Jon Clayton:
Ray, thanks again.
Jon Clayton:
Thanks so much for coming on the show and sharing your expertise with us.
Jon Clayton:
I really appreciate it.
Jon Clayton:
Could you let everybody know where is the best place to connect with you
Jon Clayton:
online if they want to get in touch?
Ray Brown:
Yep, happy
Ray Brown:
to,
Ray Brown:
you can find me on
Ray Brown:
LinkedIn, um, Ray Brown, uh, with Archibiz,
Ray Brown:
or my email address is ray at
Ray Brown:
archibiz, uh,
Ray Brown:
dot global.
Ray Brown:
So I
Ray Brown:
would encourage you to go and check out the business foundations program
Ray Brown:
or reach out to me
Ray Brown:
directly.
Ray Brown:
I'm
Ray Brown:
quite happy to
Ray Brown:
have a chat, always up
Ray Brown:
for a zoom call, speak about architectural
Ray Brown:
business and how we
Ray Brown:
can
Ray Brown:
help.
Jon Clayton:
Brilliant.
Jon Clayton:
And can you please remind everyone, um, the, the web address for the
Jon Clayton:
business foundations program?
Jon Clayton:
Can you remind everyone of that, please?
Ray Brown:
Archibiz dot global
Ray Brown:
forward slash
Ray Brown:
BFP.
Jon Clayton:
That's brilliant.
Jon Clayton:
Thanks so much, Ray.
Ray Brown:
Pleasure.
Ray Brown:
Thanks for inviting
Ray Brown:
me.
Jon Clayton:
Thanks so much for listening to this episode
Jon Clayton:
of architecture business club.
Jon Clayton:
If you liked this episode, think other people might enjoy it.
Jon Clayton:
Or just want to show your support for the show.
Jon Clayton:
Then please leave a glowing five-star review or rating wherever you listen
Jon Clayton:
to podcasts, it would mean so much to me and makes it easier for new
Jon Clayton:
listeners to discover the show.
Jon Clayton:
And if you haven't already done, so don't forget to hit the subscribe button.
Jon Clayton:
So you never miss another episode.
Jon Clayton:
If you want to connect with me, you can do that on most social media
Jon Clayton:
platforms, just search for at Mr.
Jon Clayton:
John Clayton.
Jon Clayton:
The best place to connect with me online, though is on LinkedIn.
Jon Clayton:
You can find a link to my profile in the show notes.
Jon Clayton:
Remember.
Jon Clayton:
Running your architecture business.
Jon Clayton:
Doesn't have to be hard and you don't need to do it alone.
Jon Clayton:
This is architecture business club.
