Common Outsourcing Mistakes (& How To Avoid Them!) with Derek Timms | 059

Have you ever.

Outsourced some of your architectural drafting work to another company and

felt disappointed with the results.

I certainly have.

Maybe there was an issue with the quality of the work or the

time it took to deliver it.

Well, maybe it didn't save you anywhere near as much time as you expected.

If you've had a negative experience with outsourcing, you might be feeling

reluctant to try it ever again, which is a real shame as outsourcing can

be a game changer for your business.

If you can find the right outsourcing partner to work with.

I'm joined by Derek Tims to help you avoid those common outsourcing mistakes.

And learn how to find the right outsourcing partner for your business.

In this episode of architecture business club, the weekly podcast for solo

and small firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build

a profitable future proof architecture business that fits around their life.

I'm John Clayton, your host, if you're a small practice leader or

sole practitioner in architecture.

Uh, struggling to find clarity or reach your goals.

Consider working with me.

I have a personalized one-to-one support, free coaching consulting and mentoring.

And this tailored approach helps you navigate your unique path to success.

Whether it's growing your practice, working for your hours or building

your team, I've got you covered.

Just click the link in the show notes to book a call with me to discuss

your options or email Jon that's J O n@architecturebusinessclub.com.

For more information.

Now let's discuss outsourcing.

Derek Timms is a chartered architect with 25 years of experience working

at practices like Farrell's, Gensler and Shepard Robson.

He's the managing director at The Sourcing Collective, a support

studio for the AEC industry.

The Sourcing Collective collaborates with surveyors, architects, interior designers,

contractors and property managers.

Providing architectural drafting support in BIM environments tailored

to your systems and processes.

This allows you and your in house team to focus on design

and add value to your projects.

They also work with AJ100 Practices integrating into their teams across

multiple large scale projects.

To learn more about The Sourcing Collective head over

to thesourcingcollective.

co.

uk Derek, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Hi John, it's great to be here.

Ah, it's good to have you here.

Derek, we've, chatted a few times before and I learned that one of the

things that you do outside of work is you're a school governor at a couple

of different schools, aren't you?

Could you tell me a little bit about that?

Yeah, um, I'm a school governor for two primary schools in

South East London, and it's a great opportunity to give back to the community

I live in and, um, see the amazing work that our educators, teachers,

and the staff, um, carry out every day, supporting kids with special

needs and disadvantaged backgrounds.

So it's, um, it's a real eye opener compared to what I do day to day.

I can imagine.

Yeah.

Is it quite time consuming?

It's, it's not so much, um, time consuming because it's, it's

governance opposed to management.

Um, so, uh, there is a lot of, uh, reviewing and understanding how the

schools are managed and that the management themselves are, uh, following

policy and, um, stuff like that.

Also, we visit the school from time to time, um, open classes and, uh,

you can, it's great to see the.

The change in educational styles from year one through to year six.

And what, um, did you say those were primary schools or were they

high schools that you were governors at?

Uh, they're both primary schools.

Both primary.

Yeah, my daughter's at one of them, so, um, you know,

it's, uh, you've got to have a balanced interest between both.

Um,

see things from that side to get a different perspective

on what goes on at the schools.

Uh, my children, they are, they're both at high school now.

So a little, little bit older than your two.

We, we're going to talk about though today that the main topic we're going

to talk about is, is outsourcing.

We're going to talk about common outsourcing mistakes so that architecture

practice can hopefully avoid them.

And there are lots of common mistakes when it comes to outsourcing.

And I mean, I can certainly attest to having made probably most of them

over the years because I've, um, I've had some experience of outsourcing.

in the first instance, so how can architects overcome their fear of

outsourcing in the first place?

Or perhaps when maybe they might've had a past negative experience with

outsourcing, how do you think they can overcome that fear to, to give it a try?

I think that a lot of our clients come to us with Derek.

We've tried it and it didn't work.

Um, and they haven't necessarily had the most positive experience to start with.

I guess, you know, we look at it slightly differently in that

I think outsourcing has evolved quite a lot in the last decade.

And the methods that we work together and collaborate have

changed quite a lot as well.

Our approach is to take more of a long term partnership, uh, with our

clients, uh, to get repeat work and to understand how they, how they like

to design things, deliver things.

Um, I think also that the model is being used a lot more often now,

be it large practices or small practices where they're outsourcing.

And it's, uh.

Mutually beneficial partnership in that if our clients, if I was helping support

our clients, it gives them successes.

We tend to grow with our clients because they continue to use us.

So, you know, we're really invested in making sure that that partnership

works in terms of how to deal with the previous negatives in the past.

I think.

By discussing what those negatives were, um, and exploring how you could work

together, adopt standards and systems.

It helps to break down those concerns and the fear associated with outsourcing.

that's interesting as well the point that you made about It's having

changed over the years that there are more people looking at this as more of

a long term partnership rather than just sort of a once and done arrangement which

I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of benefit to approaching it in that way.

So when it comes to actually finding the right partner to work with,

though, I mean, what do you think architecture practices should be looking

for in a good outsourcing partner?

I mean, beyond cost, I dare say cost is always going to be at least part

of the consideration, but what should they be looking for beyond that?

Yeah, I think, I mean, there's always a price point, as you

as you mentioned, but there are a lot of other factors like geography.

Um, does that outsource understand the market you work in the sector?

Um, what sort of overlap there is in terms of time zones to collaborate and meet?

That's really important in terms of communication.

Um, and then also holidays is quite a big one.

So different countries have different, um, state holidays, religious holidays.

And the last thing that you want to do is Set up a deadline and

then find out your outsource teams disappeared for two weeks on a holiday.

Um, there's the design, um, and delivery side of things, you know, is the approach,

uh, the design continues all the way through all the stages till you're

on site is an iterative process that they take or they bring and, or is it.

Here's your set of drawings and job done, which kind of leaves

your client in the lurch, which again leaves a bad experience.

You'd expect the outsourcer to adopt your standards and processes.

You might find with larger outsourcers that they probably

have more rigid systems in place.

I mean, that's my experience.

So there is value in looking at smaller outsourcers who might be more flexible

and agile to the way that you work.

There are other values such as sustainability and social responsibility

that you want to consider credentials wise, um, where cyber essentials

certified, uh, where ISO 9001, um, but you may also want to look at 19650 in

terms of BIM and, um, B Corp, uh, is something that we're certainly looking

at and I imagine other outsources are looking at getting certified for.

And then, you know, you really need to be able to trust them.

Um, because at the end of the day, you're reliant on them.

The day before you've got a huge submission, it's down to

them pulling through for you.

Um, and if, you know, you feel they've got your back, that'll give

you the confidence to move forward.

Um, and yeah, really building trust in a relationship is, uh,

the best way to go in my view.

There's a lot to, there's a lot to consider there.

There's a number of points that you've run through there, isn't there?

That beyond, it's not just about what the price quoted is for

No, it's not.

There's so much to it.

I mean, there could be a price, but, uh, your outsource is on the other side of

the world, so you're not collaborating, you're not talking, you're not

communicating, and, um, you're not getting the service that you're paying for,

irrespective of how much you're paying.

Uh,

mentioned a number of times there about the

importance of communication.

I mean, can we dig into that a little bit more?

Why is clear communication so important when you're working

with an outsourcing partner?

Every, I wouldn't say every, but lots of architects are different in

their approaches, their styles, the things that are, um, from a design perspective,

um, they want to integrate and We set out a framework at the beginning.

So your brief, which will cover, um, project information, example,

information, deadlines, scope standards.

But the, what we find works well is continued community communication.

So we will usually try and have a five minute chat every day.

Um, at least two or three times a week.

And even if it's just talking about the weather, um, you know, you're

building on that communication.

You're also talking about future projects, changes that might be happening.

And it just gives, it keeps everyone in the loop.

And they're, they are therefore able to provide a better service.

Um, because there's less surprises.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Yeah.

So it's very much integrating those overseas team members

with the in house team.

Absolutely.

It's um, Yeah, it's, uh, You've got to, we've got to remember that we, with

your outsourced team, you'll bring a whole load of different personalities,

skill sets together, just like you do on a normal, you know, within in house.

Um, so it's very similar to that, and, uh, that's the sort of approach

we try to, uh, share with our clients in, um, moving forward with our

partnerships and collaborations.

What about setting the right expectations?

How can practices set The right expectations with those

outsourced team members.

Um, So we would say, treat them like new employees, um,

or like a project architect would treat a new team coming together.

You know, there's a, there's a learning curve, um, with

each client, each practice.

There's, um, a learning curve with standards, projects, and

even when we work with different staff within our client teams.

Um, and I think.

Just being cognizant of that really helps.

I mean, there does feel sometimes to be an expectation that you are given a brief.

It's little to no communication and everyone expects the

documents to come back flawless.

You know, it doesn't work that way.

You've got to work together to produce a design and you've got to

collaborate with all the stakeholders to be able to design a building.

So it's not dissimilar when it comes to outsourcing.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And that comes back to the point that you'd made about the change

of approach that encouraging clients to look at this more as a

long term partnership arrangement, that it's the thing, isn't it?

That if it's just like one project, inevitably.

There might be a few teething problems to get over, you know, there might be a

few things that, that, that expectation of like, Oh, well, I'm going to work

with this outsourcing partner and everything's going to be absolutely

perfect on the first, the first document set that I receive or that, you know,

the first iteration of the work, it's just all going to be perfect and

otherwise I'm not going to be happy.

And you think those expectations are quite unrealistic.

If, if that's the approach that you're taking and it would be the same if it

was an in house team member and you had a new staff member that you're working

with, that I remember when I, um, worked in practices and there'd be junior team

members that would be helping support myself on a project and they'd go off

and they'd do some tasks and maybe work on some drawings and Inevitably, my

red pen would come out, there'd be some design iterations, or there'd be some

revisions, or there'd be something that I'd thought that I'd made it really clear

in the brief, and then you see the work, you see the documentation, and like,

ah, oh, actually, I didn't make that clear enough, or it wasn't done quite

the way I was expecting it to be done, and that's That's perfectly normal, I

think, like whether it's in house or whether the team members are overseas.

just kind of like the nature of the work we do, isn't it?

And everyone has their, um, their own way of doing things.

I mean, we had, we issued a work in progress at, um, The other day and the

light fittings were on a furniture plan and I said, why are they not on the RCP?

Well, we need to know where the furniture is to make sure we're

putting the lights in the right place.

That's a very good point.

Um, so, you know, that's, it's, it's just different processes.

And, um, you're right.

It is about creating long term partnerships.

Um, and that's how you're able to rely on an outsourcer.

Um, you know, they, there are teething problems.

You've got to work through projects.

Um, but the, you want to get to the point where they keep turning up for

you time and time again, and you're able to rely on them and, you know, if there

is a problem, it's about sitting down and how do you deal with that problem?

You know, it's getting through, it's, every building that is designed has

problems and issues, and it's all about how you deal with those problems

and issues as you go through them.

So it's not unnatural in that process to expect to have it with an outsourcer

as you would with your internal team.

And you mentioned again about trust, about building that trust.

I think I mentioned this actually on a recent episode that, and I can't remember

who said it, but the trust is like interactions, the number of interactions

over time so that, you know, the more times that you have interactions with

somebody, the more that that trust builds and the same could be said with your

outsourcing partner, that the more that you work with them, the more that that

trust is going to build up and you, you know, you get a better understanding of.

Of how each of the work I've had a few, a few misfires, I would say in the,

my early experiments with outsourcing and I think partly that was due

to things being quite last minute.

So I was wondering about to get, get your take on that, about why, why is it risky

to make last minute outsourcing decisions and, and how can early planning help?

Well, I mean, we've all worked in offices with large projects

coming up to a deadline day and there's too much to do and you end

up with half the office working on it, um, just to get it over the line.

And it's great because you hit the deadline, but everyone sits there

afterwards thinking there was probably a better way of handling this.

And it's the same with outsourcing.

If you, you wait until it's too late.

Um, you're going to bring an outsourcer in.

They're going to do the best job they can do.

Um, and at the end of it you'll still turn around and think there probably was

a better way we could have done this.

Um, We have some clients which they say, Oh, you know, we all suggest

getting us involved very early on, um, and building that relationship.

We have some that say, well, we'll wait until two large projects hit at

the same time and we'll give you one.

So all of a sudden your, your client has these two large projects that have landed.

Um, they're overstretched, so they give one to the outsourcer.

But then they're also overstretched with the other project and are

unable to, you know, brief and collaborate well on the other one.

So it's, it's, uh, there's, there's got to be a better balance.

Um, and the way of doing that is just getting an outsourcer involved earlier.

And there's, there's kind of, there's some obvious signs.

Um, you know, you might win a lot of framework for a couple of years

and know that you're going to grow.

So there's an opportunity there to start a discussion.

There could be a skills gap.

There's still quite a lot of practices out there using CAD.

And we're really well into the realm of BIM and Revit now.

And that is the trajectory of that is, you know, more into digital

technologies going forward.

Um, there is improved margins when you do get the outsourcing model working.

Um, You know, the, the margins improve significantly.

That could be in terms of cost, but also the other way in terms

of, um, it allows our clients to focus on their core business.

Visiting site, mitigating risks with issues that have come up,

client facing, bidding, um, you know, so it, it, it allows them

to focus on their core business.

And then, you know, some practices we work with.

They may win a big project and they just need, you know, uh, support

for a period of six to nine months and help them through that project.

And hopefully, you know, there's another project that comes

after that, but it's difficult.

You can't forecast that.

And a lot of lot of practices don't want to necessarily commit to hiring 5 to 10

people knowing in six months that they may not have any work to sustain that.

There's some great points you've made there.

excuse me, the, that idea that it gives you that flexibility.

As you say that if there is a project that comes through and maybe it's

for a set time period, maybe sort of six to nine months that it allows you

to be able to resource that project

Yeah.

and not have to worry about then, Oh, we've now got five

more employees that we now need to keep busy after that project finishes.

And also the other thing you mentioned was about where.

If there's a practice that maybe they're still, they're using AutoCAD and maybe

there's a opportunity for a project, but it needs to be, you know, BIM level,

whatever, that they actually need to have, they need to be using something, some

software that maybe they don't already have the skills in house to deliver that.

So actually.

Finding the right outsourcing partner to work with that does allow practices to

basically widen that, that talent pool and to access some other skills that

they might not necessarily have in house right now, whether that is a software

skill or particular sector that may be as an outsourcing partner, you might

actually have more experience in than they currently do if that particular project is

a little bit outside of their usual remit.

we've had that recently with a, a SIPS panel project, we'd

worked with a SIPS contractor, um, and an architect came up to us and said, look,

we're working on this SIPS house for the first time, um, can you help us out?

And yeah, it was, it was great because we, you, you think with SIPS panels,

they're very, um, flexible, but actually compared to block work and

brick work, you know, that is super flexible because with the SIPS, it's

what level you're springing off.

And as soon as a floor level changes.

All the panels have to change and there's a huge amount of work that goes into that.

Um, the, the other thing, like you mentioned, there's a, another aspect

in terms of staff is staff retention.

So if you have a big project that comes into the office, um, you don't want your

staff working to midnight every night.

It's not the culture that you created in the practice.

And, um, by using an outsourcer, you help to, alleviate some of that stress,

you know, it could be area drawings.

Uh, it could be, um, dry lining package.

Um, it could be context on planning applications.

So there are all these different elements that can help support and the culture

within a practice at the same time.

Yeah, that's, that's such a good point.

I think, the other thing as well, you just mentioned there's about the idea of

the outsourcing team could be working on sort of specific packages for a bigger

project that I think one of the, one of the things that are misconceptions

that I had about outsourcing, uh, when I first tried it many years ago was that

I would just outsource a whole package.

piece of work, a whole, a whole projects and it would just all magically be

perfect and done in the way that I would like it to be done and then subsequently

I found that actually outsource it, looking at as a way to time, leverage

resources within the practice was a better approach by saying, well, actually

we're going to use the outsourcing partner to just help with this, the

documentation of this work stage, you know, so maybe it was like part of the

work was done by the outsourcing partner.

And then part of the work was done in house and it was an

integration and that seemed to work.

far more effectively, really in the, the experiences that I had.

It doesn't have to be like an all or nothing thing is what I'm saying is

that if you, your practice does get busy or just win a new project, it doesn't

have to be like, Oh, well, the partner does the whole thing and that's it.

Like there can be that level of integration where it's like, you mentioned

about, we've got this big projects.

They're going to work on this package.

Maybe our in house guys work on this documentation package and

there's that integration together.

and I guess it, that's going to vary.

That approach is going to vary, isn't it?

Depending on the approach of the practice and the nature of the projects.

But just, would you agree with that?

That that is another way that they can look at this.

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Now, back to the show.

Yeah.

I mean, we find that, um, It really depends on the priorities.

The priorities keep changing.

And that doesn't necessarily mean it comes from the practice.

It comes from the client.

Sometimes the clients are constantly making changes.

And, um, In some instances that needs to be led, um, by the practice, in others

it might be, there might be a joinery package, for instance, um, something

completely separate that can just be, you know, can you just work with that because,

and, and, and document that up for us whilst we're addressing these different

elements and, you know, projects start and stop, so sometimes when we're providing

a dedicated resource model, um, A project will pause or maybe there's a review

period of a, of a milestone submission.

And, um, you know, we'll move on to another project for X number of weeks

with that, with the same staff and then, um, move back when it restarts.

So the, the, there's lots of flexibility and options that

way, um, that can be provided.

Cool.

So, if this has kind of piqued people's interest, I mean, how can practices

try outsourcing in a low risk way?

What would you recommend?

So, um, typically all our, um, clients.

Relationships start off with a trial project.

Um, and it varies.

It varies depending on, I guess, um, the risk profile of the client, um,

their workload, um, the situation, um, that they're dealing with and

how they're going to resource it.

Uh, so, you know, we're working with AJ100 architects.

The projects tend to be quite bigger, um, and it might just be a

specific stage, maybe stage three.

Um, sometimes it's a whole project and, you know, I guess the risk is

mitigated there because we're working on BIM Collaborate Pro, um, or Autodesk

Construction Cloud, similar in the sense that cloud based, and we're, we're working

together at the same time, um, on the same project and, um, working together.

Another approach for smaller practices, um, we're working with a practice

up north, um, a couple of people.

And that started off with them saying, look, could you just model the context

for a planning application in SketchUp?

We said, yes, then it's developed to, we did the, um, existing drawings

for the planning application.

Then it was a planning application.

Now we're doing stage four, um, packages for them.

Um, but yeah, it's start small, test it.

Um, Discuss it, what went well, what didn't go well, what are

the lessons learned from it?

And, um, and then carry on.

Uh, you know, the first, first few couple of projects, maybe three,

especially if the type of work is changing, um, is all a learning curve.

Um, but once you get through that, it becomes, um, quite easy.

And you've built up the trust and there's a lot more

transparency in the relationship.

Um, so, you know, it's.

You're able to have discussions about programs, say, actually,

you know, we can't hit Friday, but we can hit Tuesday for you.

Is that all right?

That's fine, Derek.

Um, so, yeah, that's that's the approach.

I would take a trial project and test the water.

That's good advice.

Yeah.

So, so start off with a trial projects, maybe something, uh,

smaller, smaller package of work and then review how that's gone.

And then, as you say, that it might be that you need to have, you know, the first

two or three projects as a, a testing period with the outsourcing partner that

I think, um, that's the thing with the trial project is that it's, It's very

sensible to do that, but it might take, two or three small packages of work

or more than one project to, to decide if it's the right outsourcing partner.

So I would encourage people to do that as well, to, as you say, to, to stick

with it and to actually just, you know, if it isn't, you Absolutely a hundred

percent perfect on that first project.

It's not going to be, it's not going to be absolutely a hundred percent perfect.

That's, I think that's unrealistic for people to expect that.

But

Yeah,

as an opportunity to try out working with a part outsourcing partner

and to say, we're going to commit to this and we're going to trial this and we're

going to over a, I don't know, like a three month period or whatever it is,

depending on the size of the work that to me would be a more sensible way to do.

realistically determine if it's the right partner to work with.

Basically to give people a fair crack of the whip, I think is the term, isn't it?

is, it's giving it's giving them a fair chance.

And if you start early and it's not when you're at support project

or the practice is under pressure.

Yeah.

The time constraints are more relaxed, so everyone's a bit more

relaxed, communication's better, and, you know, the end result's better.

That's just normal.

Yeah, I think that's, that is so key, isn't it?

Because often when people do decide to try outsourcing, it is at that point

where it's too late, where they've got to a point where they're overwhelmed and

trying to find somebody under pressure and perhaps not actually choosing the right

firm because maybe the choice is, the decision is clouded by who is available

and who can drop onto it quickly.

And that's certainly a mistake that I've made in the past

by approaching it that way.

yeah, I remember having conversations with I practice, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, no

problem, we can, we can sort it, it'll all be, we can do it in this time frame, and

like promising the earth, and, and they were an absolute nightmare to work with.

It was just, and I had a feeling at the very beginning, I had this funny feeling

in the pit of my stomach, or this little like voice in my head saying, oh, not too

sure about this John, this sounds like it.

Might just be too good to be true.

And, um, I should have listened to that little voice on that occasion.

Yeah, I guess.

I mean, you can, you can understand the logic of why.

Um, the other side of it is that when you're at that point, you've already

got a fee agreed, so there's only so much that's there if you've, if you're

already working with an outsourcer, um, you're able to say, well, you

know, I'm going in for this project.

I'd like you to do this.

What's that fee going to be?

And you can build that into your fee.

Um, you know, there's some clients we work with.

We just work off a percentage of their fee.

And that's, you know, we've worked with them a long time and it's about trust.

You know, we sometimes get asked, well, how long is it going to take?

And it's like, well, how long would it take you to do?

And that's how long it should take us to do.

Um, and if our client's being honest with us and vice versa, um, expectation is met.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's, that's so true.

yeah, in terms of kind of like how long things are going to take, that's

a good kind of gauge, isn't it?

To just sort of reflect on like how long it would take you, you to do it,

uh, in your own practice, because, outsourcing teams are they're You've

got some very talented staff in outsourcing companies, but it's not

like a magic bullet where it's like, Oh, well, they work four times faster

than any other architecture practices.

That's not quite how it works, is it?

So we do have to be realistic with our expectations.

Yeah, you know, something we're very conscious of is, um, how our

staff moves from one project to another.

It's quite difficult to go from area drawings into,

you know, detailing joinery.

As a mindset from one day to the next.

Um, it's, you know, moving from different sectors.

You might be one day modeling a front of house kitchen in a hotel or something.

Um, and, you know, the next day you're moving onto a commercial project.

Just the scales are very different.

Um, and it's just something that we're very conscious about, um, with our staff

that, you know, it does take a couple of days to, you know, get your head

around moving from that scale size.

Um,

good point.

So.

Derek let's try and kind of wrap things up now, I think.

I was going to ask, what would be the main thing that you'd like

everybody to take away from this conversation about outsourcing?

I think the main thing would be, um, have a chat.

Um, if it's something that you're thinking about or something you've tried before,

um, or, and you want to try again.

Um, even if you don't, there's no harm in a discussion.

Have a chat with an outsourcer.

Um, talk about your concerns.

Talk about those fears, um, and you know, get surety or comfort in

the reliability and the services that's going to be provided.

Ask for testimonials, ask for example, drawings, um, and yeah,

feel it out and see if it's going to work for, um, your office, your

practice, and the way you work.

That's good advice.

Was there anything else that you wanted to add that we haven't already

covered about outsourcing today?

I think, um, I guess the one area, we haven't really

talked about cost much, have we?

Um, so to turn a bit on its head so that the hidden, the hidden

cost in outsourcing actually isn't the cost of your outsourcer.

It's the, it's the cost of your time reviewing the documents and redlining it.

So irrespective of how much the outsources costing.

You've got your time looking at it.

You've also got the time and the value lost to the company because,

um, that skill set is not being used appropriately, um, in what they could

be, you know, getting more work or maintaining existing client relationships.

So I think that's the one thing that I would highlight when people are looking

at prices that you've got or cost.

You've got to consider actually quality and level of service

you're getting because even the cheapest price might actually end

up being the most expensive price.

Yeah, that is such a good point, because, we can always

earn more money, but you can't get your time back, I think that was My

naivety when I first tried outsourcing was this expectation that, Oh, well

that's, that's being outsourced now.

So like, I'll have to spend like practically zero hours on it.

And that just wasn't the case.

And then I, again, depending on the quality of the outsourcing partner,

In the bad instances, then there was a lot of time that I spent reviewing

documentation with my red pen, but then once I'd found a better outsourcing

partner, that that time investment that I still had to make was a lot less.

But even so, it would be that maybe, it was rewiring my brain and my expectations

of how much time I would save.

So I would look at it and go, well, okay, so instead of me, I'm not

spending 100 percent of my time working on this particular project.

Like my hours might reduce from, let's say it was 100 hours.

I might still spend 20 hours on it, for example.

I'm picking a number here, so, you know, humor me with this.

But the point is, is that it wasn't an expectation that my 100 hours that I would

spend doing it myself was going to reduce to zero or just like two or three hours.

It was like, you know what, if I can work with this outsourcing partner,

I can leverage my time and I can, you know, they do like, I don't know,

even 75 percent of the work and I spend 25 percent of the time on it.

Like I've invested that money in buying back 75 percent of my hours and

I've, maybe 25 percent of that time is still spent coordinating with the

outsourcing partner and providing clear instructions and briefing and then

reviewing the documentation whenever there's design changes or iterations

or revisions and feeding that back.

So that's very much the same way though that going back to that example I

mentioned earlier about the junior staff members in when I worked is that, and even

Even if it was team members that were at a similar level of experience to me, like

forgetting about them being a junior, like even if they were sort of a similarly

experienced architectural technologist, they'd be coming in as, uh, to work on

a project as a team member because, oh, maybe they had some extra capacity that

week and, and I needed some support.

Inevitably, they'd, they'd do things and.

There would still be some revisions and changes because it wouldn't, it's not like

they're going to do it in exactly the same way, you know, we did have like office.

like CAD protocols and things to work towards.

But there was always a few things that needed to be changed and that's

perfectly normal and that would be the same even with a perfectly competent

outsourcing partner that there would still be that investment of time, at

least a proportion of the hours you would still have to invest working on

that project to support that partner.

Yeah.

So, um, a lot of our, pretty much all actually, um, our staff are

either architects or have worked in the industry for a long, long time.

And yeah, it's exactly the same.

It's just a different team that you're getting.

Yeah.

a team outside your office, and if you work with

them long enough, you become an extended team of that office anyway.

Um, and you get to, you know, you get to know everyone like colleagues.

Um, so, you know, that's, that's the model that, um, I guess everyone should

really try and aspire to, is that if they choose to outsource, that that outsource

partner is an extension of their team.

Yeah, I totally agree.

That's, uh, definitely the right approach.

So, Derek, we're going to wrap things up now.

There's another question that I'd like to ask you, and it's nothing to

do with outsourcing, I'd just like to ask all the guests, uh, this question.

It's about travel, because I love to travel and to discover new

places, and I think, architecture is about place as well.

So, could you tell me one of your favourite places

and what you love about it?

This could be near or far.

Alright, well, it won't surprise you, um, because

we have an office in Sri Lanka.

My favourite place, or one of my favourite places, um, would be Sri Lanka.

Um, it's, it's just I don't know what it is.

It's, it's, it's got beaches.

It's got hill country with stunning landscape.

It's got safaris where you can go and see leopards,

elephants, crocodiles, um, bears.

There's a vibrant culture.

Uh, there's history, there's heritage.

I mean, there's, there's architecture with Geoffrey Barbar and Minit de Silva.

Um, And I think what I like about it is every time, you know, I go back about

four times a year as well, to work with the team there, that each time it just

feels like I've gone on an adventure.

And there's always something new to learn and see and it's um, it's just

a beautiful country and I love it.

Oh, that sounds awesome.

I've, I've not made it to Sri Lanka yet.

Come visit us.

Yeah, I'd love that.

That would be great.

Yeah.

I did spend some time backpacking around India many years ago.

I spent a few months in India.

So not, not a million miles away from Sri Lanka.

and I, I loved it.

Where did you go?

Went all over, like we flew into Delhi spent some time

traveling around Rajasthan, so visited like Jaipur, Udaipur Bikaner.

where else did we go?

We went to, went to Mumbai and then caught the overnight train

down to Goa and then visited some places inland and then down to.

Down to Kerala

Wow, you saw a lot.

the, saw a lot.

Yeah.

Then right down to the Southern tip of India, back up to Chennai on the

East coast, and then we got a flight back from Chennai back up to Delhi.

So we did like a whole circuit around the subcontinent and, um, it was amazing.

Absolutely amazing experience.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, um, it's not for the faint hearted, I would say,

You get

an adventure, Yeah,

yeah, that's it.

I suppose there was that culture shock when we first arrived in Delhi, we

were kind of a bit like of a shock to the system, but then by the time

we'd got back to Delhi again, after sort of the end of the trip, it was

like, ah, this is, this is fine.

Like, you know, what, what was all the fuss about a few months ago?

You know, it was, uh, sort of took it all in our stride, but yeah,

absolutely had an amazing time there.

Yeah, maybe get back there one day.

So, Derek, this has been awesome.

Thank you so much for joining us on the show and sharing

your experience on outsourcing.

We do appreciate that.

If any of the listeners would like to connect with you, where would be

the best place for them to do that?

Uh, yeah, please just connect LinkedIn.

Probably the easiest way to find me.

Super.

Well, I'll make sure that I put, um, A link to your LinkedIn in the show notes.

So people can find that there.

And would you like to just remind everybody of the website address as well?

Yeah, it's www.

thesourcingcollective.

co.

uk.

Awesome.

Brilliant.

Thanks so much, Derek.

Great.

Thanks very much, John.

Nice speaking to you.

Next time I'm joined by branding expert, VAR deep Edwards

to uncover how to communicate your brand with confidence.

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