Grade-G Student To Grade-A Architecture with Ian Shirvell | 020

How do you go from being a G grade high school student to becoming an a grade

charted architectural technologist forging a successful career as a

sole practitioner in architecture.

You'll find out in my conversation with Ian Chevelle in this episode

of architecture business club, the weekly podcast for solo and small

firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build a

profitable future proof architecture business that fits around their life.

I'm the host, John Clayton.

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Now let's explore in's unconventional career journey.

Into architecture.

Ian Chavelle is a chartered architectural technologist and the

founder of Aura Design Architecture.

He comes from a family of property developers and his

career spans over 20 years.

Starting as an apprentice in carpentry, he studied architectural technology at

Oxford and developed his architectural expertise during his time at two

prestigious RIBA registered practices.

Throughout his career, Ian has worked on a broad range of projects,

including residential, healthcare, churches and education, including a

new leading independent school and renowned Oxford University buildings.

Ian, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Hi,

John.

Good to have you here.

Good to be here.

Ian, I know that you love a bit of DIY, don't you?

Could you tell me a little bit about how your posh shed is coming along?

Well, it's very slowly, to be honest.

It's hopefully going to be my new, my new office in my garden.

But I started it, I don't know, nearly 18 months ago.

And it's going to be made from a plastic shed.

That's my plan.

And it's still sat in the garden, in the boxes.

So it'll be, it'll be low maintenance

once it's finished.

Yes.

Hopefully it'll look, look good as well.

Well, you know, slow and steady wins, wins the race.

Keep chipping away at it.

So, uh, Ian, we're not going to talk about your shed all day.

We are actually going to talk, um, a bit about your career journey.

In architecture, um, you came from a family of property developers.

How did that influence your career

choices?

That's right.

Yeah.

So my, my family had been in construction and they've mostly been tradesmen, but

also property developers that go back many generations, as many as I can

remember, certainly on my father's side.

And I often grew up in some of dad's projects as they were being built.

Most of our homes were his projects, farmhouses and you build

bungalows and all sorts of things.

And he sort of explained to me the different roles of, um, the design team

and the architects that he would work with and the surveyors that he would

work with, which then, you know, led to me going into the industry, really.

My family were also, um, from trade backgrounds.

My, my father and my brother were both, um, joiners, time served joiners.

So yeah, I, I guess I sort of grew up around property

development as well in some ways.

So I guess that sort of got your interest peaked in, in property

But back at high school, your grades weren't great at high school.

Do you want to share some of those grades with us?

They're quite bad.

Um, yeah, I think the lowest one was a G.

Um, was it, and that was sort of for my, uh, graphics module, which

was, um, the closest one to what, you know, what I do now for a job.

It was, it was pretty bad.

Um, I think things just didn't really work for me at school.

I don't know if it was the environment, the way I was taught or, or what.

It just didn't quite work for me.

And I sort of just switched off.

And I think that's why I did, did so badly really.

Um, but you know, wanting to better myself, leaving school, I sort

of continued my education out of school, which is how I sort of,

and although I went a very long winded route, which is how I sort

of came to do what I do now really.

When we talked on a previous occasion, you mentioned about your

dyslexia.

Yes.

Do you think that

affected things in your school days?

It was undiagnosed dyslexia, wasn't it?

Yeah.

So it is still undiagnosed.

I really should get a diagnosis really, because, uh, well, I'll be quite miffed

if I haven't got dyslexia because I've certainly blamed it for a lot of things.

But it was, it was just the way that I sort of learn things, things

are explained to me in the same way they're explained to everybody else.

And it didn't really make a lot of sense to me, probably, probably more at college.

When I came to college, I remember working with someone, she was really

smart, this girl, and she was, she was trained to be a civil engineer.

And, um, I remember someone was explaining some sort of theory behind

some physics calculation and I just didn't really understand it and I glazed

over and I looked at her and she handed me a worked example and she said, you

know, just forget about the theory, concentrate on the calculation and

everything else will fall into place.

And that's kind of what I did.

And that was something that.

You know, it was from my college days and that stuck with me through

life, to be honest, you know, and it's worked for everything.

All my architecture work, everything I need to grasp or understand, I just

concentrate on doing of the work.

And then the sort of theory or the technical explanations of things.

I sort of understand that over time.

I don't know if it's the same for everybody else, but it's

certainly the way it is for me.

Yeah.

And I think that's probably what hindered me at school.

I was trying to grasp the whole thing in one go and I just

don't think that really worked.

So I sort of, I sort of found my own way of learning, I suppose, what works for me.

I think it can

be difficult if The way that you're being taught doesn't align with

your, your own way of learning.

If your brain works in a different way, um, it can be really difficult, can't it?

If there's a lack of flexibility with the way that you're taught things.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely.

And I certainly think the way I work now, certainly when I'm producing

a complex detail for my own, for myself to understand it, I make

these very complicated things are very, very simple and easy to follow.

And.

I think that's how my clients understand the complicated details

that I do, because they're involved in, in putting those details together.

And I break things down very simply.

I'm not sure about the way everybody works, but certainly the way I work.

And I think that I hope that's why my clients want to work with me, I suppose.

I don't know, maybe I should ask them that, see what they think.

Well, you know, maybe that, um, the way that you work and interpret things

is, has become one of your superpowers.

Hopefully.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ian, given those grades that you just shared with us, your route.

Into architecture and specifically architectural technology.

It wasn't linear.

Was it?

You actually started out on the tools.

Could you tell me about your time as a carpenter?

So, yeah, so obviously I left school and I didn't have great GCSEs.

I didn't have a lot to work with.

And my father, my father was a carpenter and I'd sort of work with him in the

summer holidays and things and, you know, I, I done quite well in, I think

my sort of woodworking, I think it was called design or something, um, GCSEs,

and that was sort of a woodworking based one and I've done quite well in that.

Well, I think that's the one C grade I've got, actually.

So that's why we sort of pursued that as a career.

Yeah, you know, the apprenticeship was good.

It went well, but I, I always felt that I could achieve more academically and I

sort of had a thirst for more academic.

Um, study and then I remember I did my, I did my three years of NVQ, the carpentry

and then there was, I think they, some people came around from college and they

asked if people wanted to do an ONC and usually one or two people would go and

I certainly wasn't the best carpenter.

on the course.

You know, I was okay, but I certainly wasn't the best.

I think they were quite surprised that I wanted to go and do the ONC.

And, um, I think for the first year, I really struggled, you know, to get my

head into this right place where I could understand the academic side of things.

I mean, the maths module alone, you know, I mean, I had an E grade in GCSE.

We were doing some of the stuff from the A level syllabus.

It was so hard.

I sort of persevered through the first year.

And then by the time I got to the second year of ONC, it, I

sort of knew what I had to do.

And it just, I just knew I had to put the time in, learn things in my own way.

And it, and it sort of worked.

And then I think after I got the first, I still work on site for

the first year as a carpenter.

And then, and then I, yeah, then I applied for a job at a building

surveyor, as a trainee building surveyor.

And I didn't really know I was going to go into architecture.

So I went into work for a building surveyor, and they happened to do

architecture work on the side, which, which, yeah, which is how it happened.

I mean, I thought I was gonna.

And even when I went to work for a building surveyor, I mean, I didn't

know it was quantity surveying, building surveying, and sort

of measured building surveying.

I didn't know, I didn't really know what I was doing.

I think I thought I was going to be using fjord lights and stuff, you know, and then

I understood what building surveying was.

And then I understood about, you know, CAD and architecture.

And then I thought, okay, this, this is what I'm going to do.

This is for me.

And that was kind of how it started really.

So it was kind of a happy accident, I guess, at that point that you've

seen this opportunity for the building surveying company, and then it sort

of led in a different direction.

Yeah, I mean, I always wanted to, I mean, my dad had told me what an architectural

technician did, and that did appeal to me.

And I remember sitting in the common room at school and them saying,

you know, it's a start for, if you need four GCSEs, C or above.

And so I dismissed it and just by fate, it would come around again.

And it was purely by chance, to be honest.

But since I saw the opportunity to go into architecture, I thought

that's, I'm going to take that because that's just meant to happen.

Clearly

meant to be definitely.

Yeah.

You went, then went on to work for, uh, a timber frame manufacturer and, and then

that then led on to your first role in an.

Architects office.

So with the timber frame business, the company I worked for, I mean,

that again happened by accident.

A guy came into college and he said, you, I'm looking to take some people

on to design these timber frame houses.

And that, and I just thought this seemed like a really good opportunity,

something different, and I think at the time the money was a lot more

than what I was on, and I think I was probably enticed by that initially.

I mean, probably wasn't the best career move in, in terms of architecture,

but what it did give me was.

It was like, okay, you can just put building regs, put planning, put a lot of

that stuff aside and just concentrate on the drawing, the drafting elements of it.

And I really sort of got to grips with, with CAD and drafting complex

sections through roofs and some of these complex bits around timber frame.

And what, what, what it gave, what it then meant was when I

then came back to architecture.

I had all these drafting skills, and I could focus more on

the technical aspects of it.

And I think it's, it's a bit like what I was saying a minute ago, I, I

was sort of breaking things down to really learn the craft, if that makes.

Makes sense, because when you first start, it's almost overwhelming.

The amount of information you've got to know and understand, isn't it?

From, from just being able to draw, build and regs, planning, construction,

how to deal with all these consultants.

I mean, it's, it's, it's huge amounts of learn, isn't it?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You've got to be like a sort of Swiss army knife and Put your skills

to all sorts of different uses.

There's, there's a lot that you need to learn in our industry.

That sounds like it was a really good grounding for you, um, that time there.

And it led on to your first role at, um, an architect's office

as an architectural technician.

How did that come about?

Yeah, yeah.

So, that was the first architectural practice I went to work for.

And, um, it was great, great to be there.

They were, they did some interesting work.

We did lots of work on universities and colleges.

And like I say, they did some interesting work, the partners

all did different things.

There was lots of different work coming out of the office.

I enjoyed the work.

We did lots of stuff on lots of Oxford University projects.

Student accommodation and such.

And it was, yeah, really interesting, good quality work.

How did it feel to finally be working in an architecture practice, having

perhaps felt in your school days that, that it wasn't going to happen?

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How did it feel once you finally got there?

It was good.

You know, the timing was right for me because like I said, you

know, I've got all these skills.

I've got my, I started to get things together and I could really get

to work on these nice projects.

It was good.

The practice was listed in the in the AJ top 100.

I can't remember where they were number 75 or something, but

they did some interesting work.

It was great.

I wouldn't necessarily that the drawing standards were the highest.

Um, the projects were good.

Most of the projects were design and build.

So there was a lot of sort of figuring things out when they're on site.

It was presented with a lot of problems.

But it went well, you know, it went good.

And then the next practice I went to work after that, I would say, you know,

their architecture was pretty good.

They weren't in the AJ top 100, but their drawing standard was very high, very high.

And, and I remember going there thinking, cool, I've really got to

up my game here a bit because the drawings were just, it was just so, so

well laid out and so thought through.

And the difference is the previous practice, I might be working on a

large project with sort of many people.

And when, when I was sort of there, it'd be like, okay, and here's a

project, you know, I don't know, it's a, it's a care home and I would

sort of work on that solidly for 12 to 18 months, detailing up the whole

building, you know, doing it all myself.

So you get a really tight set of drawings.

And then what that gave me is a really nice set of drawings to put

in my portfolio of, you know, work.

I could be really proud of that was 100 percent my own, you know,

it was all my own work and it was.

It was really nice.

Yeah, I mean, we did a couple of school buildings, university buildings,

care homes, churches as well.

A little bit of work on Comptree Cathedral as well.

They had a sort of specialist sort of team that dealt with churches and cathedrals

and that was sort of interesting work.

Um, but it was a really, yeah, sort of standards of the drawings were

really high and it was great for me.

It's a really good.

sort of skill to have, I think.

Absolutely.

I, I can recall my earlier experiences in my, the earlier part of my career

when I'd been doing bits and pieces on projects, you know, assisting.

Other architects or technicians.

And it was amazing that those first opportunities to actually just

get a whole project to just like work on on all of all on your own.

It was an amazing feeling, really satisfying.

And some of those bigger projects, you sort of look at it and you think.

But every bit of drawing work of this is my own, and there could be, I don't

think, I don't know if it's the same for you, but some of my projects, you

know, were, it was sort of like 50 drawings, you know, and, um, yeah,

you look at it, you can feel really sort of proud of it, can't you?

Absolutely,

yeah.

Sure beats just doing like, Toilet layouts, door schedules.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Classics.

Those early days are quite disheartening, aren't they?

You know, I remember myself doing a door schedule for over a hundred doors.

And I thought, come on, is this it?

This is, you've got to try and get through those bits.

Haven't you get through those, um, Yeah, I mean, they're

valuable.

They are really valuable skills to learn and they're necessary.

But I mean, I think I could probably speak for just about everybody who's

working in architecture that when they decided to go into architecture.

They didn't think, Oh, I can't

wait to

do some door schedules.

That's right.

I know.

I know.

It's pretty, it is pretty light.

But what it does teach, I suppose, is that methodical approach, which you have

to train your brain to do, don't you?

When you're doing drawing work, would you say that's the same for you?

Is it training that brain to become really sort of methodical and sort

of noticed like the most, I don't know, the other line that's out

of place or something like that.

That attention to detail.

that you have to learn in practice, isn't it?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

The, the devil is in the detail was, uh, what my old colleagues used to tell me.

There came a point, I think around the time there was that big recession, you

were, you made redundant, weren't you?

How did, how did that affect you personally?

Well, it was difficult.

I mean, I've been a for, I don't know, five or six years.

I've been as a long list.

position I'd ever had.

And, um, it was difficult because I knew that all the other firms

were in the same position.

I thought, how am I going to get a job?

You know, all these firms are in the same position.

They're all laying people off.

I had a good, a good portfolio of work, so I thought, well, okay, you know, there's

a lot of competition, you know, should be pretty good amongst the competition there.

I went to work for a firm who offered me some work on a contractual basis.

So he said, look, we can't give you a full time job, but here's a project.

You've got X weeks to do it and do a set of building registrars.

And, um, and it went well.

And then after that, they actually offered me a job and I thought, well,

I quite like this way of working, you know, it works quite well for me.

So from that, I continued to work for them as a freelancer for a few projects.

And then I went to work for lots of firms.

I just worked for lots of other firms around Oxford.

I mean, there was not that many firms.

it around Oxford and Banbury that I hadn't worked for.

I've done some drawings for them or something.

And it worked, it worked quite well, quite well, really.

So that was

the sort of start of your own business that, that starting off as a freelancer.

Yeah.

More as a freelancer.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, I mean, to then sort of form in my own practice, I mean, that was.

I mean, a couple of things happened before that.

So first of all, I became chartered, which I took a long, long time over.

Um, I certainly made it difficult for myself.

I mean, particularly, I did, I don't know if you know, do you

remember the TSIAC qualification?

So I did that one first because I just felt I wasn't quite ready for MCIAT.

And I did that, but it was almost like doing the whole thing twice.

In hindsight, I should have gone straight for MCIAT.

And then, um, well, then my daughter was born between me, my, my pop record,

uh, passing my daughter was born.

I sort of shelved it and put it on the side and I took quite a long time.

So I sat the interview.

And then I finally sat in the interview.

I was just so relieved to pass because of so much time at laps.

I put myself under so much pressure to pass it, you know?

So that happened.

I was really pleased to have passed and got my qualifications.

And then we had, well, then I just been instructed on it by a client to, um,

on a big projects, big barn conversion, which I've really pleased to get.

And, uh, and then COVID happened and luckily I had that project.

And so I've worked on that project all through COVID.

And through COVID, I, um, thought, well, this is what I'm going to do.

I'm going to just, I'm not going to do work for other people.

I'm going to do work for myself.

And that one project led to more and that's how it's sort of gone on really.

The

timing of that particular project sounds very fortunate.

I was going to ask you actually about how you, your business was

affected by the pandemic, but it sounds like you, you managed okay.

Yeah, I was very lucky.

Very lucky.

It came along at the right time.

Yeah, I was just very fortunate.

And then, and then from that, because that was quite a large project,

I was working with quite a lot of consultants and those consultants

recommended me for other projects.

So I was winning some quite big.

Projects, which is good because I think certainly when you work for

yourself, you know, it's a lot of people that do extension work and I'm not

mocking that because I still do lots of extension work, but it's very hard

until you've got one under your belt to break out of extension work, isn't it?

If you want to do other projects, bigger projects, I think once you've

got one or two in your portfolio, then hopefully that will, that

will win other projects, hopefully.

So what, what type of projects do you enjoy working on now?

Or would you like more of?

Well, it's difficult.

So I, I have enjoyed work on these big, this big barn conversion, particularly

the thing I liked about that was.

I had a really ambitious client that wanted to use lots

of different build systems.

So the big thing she wanted to use was these ICF blocks.

I'd never worked with those before.

I didn't know anything about them.

I'd seen them on grand designs, they've blown and concrete spilled

everywhere, but it was all new to me.

So I had a client which wanted to invest in that and invest in me to go and learn

about it and understand it and detail it.

And.

So probably more, as opposed to the particular types of buildings,

I suppose, projects where you can learn about, learn and implement

new technologies like that, I think.

And I think that generally seems to be the bigger projects where that happens.

A lot of my extension work, I don't know, for you is quite similar.

It's materials to match existing.

It's usually a cavity wall and very conscious of budget.

So, that's what I hope those projects bring in the future.

I want more of that, I suppose.

Well, I hope you get more of those projects.

Definitely.

What about challenges or frustrations as a small practice owner in architecture or

any particular frustrations that you have?

Or what would you say is the biggest challenge for you at the moment?

I think.

It's difficult.

I've got all this experience and this sort of, you know, everyone

that does this job has got a unique experience and unique set of skills.

And it's kind of how you put that across to people and how you sort

of sell yourself and how you stand out really, because there is so

many people doing this kind of work.

And some people, you know, they come from different backgrounds.

Some are architects, some are building surveyors, and some are,

some are people that just do drawings.

And, um, I think it's kind of sort of showing people why they should choose

me and why I'm good at what I do.

Without sounding, I suppose, almost arrogant at times, isn't it?

Because you have all this experience and you're trying to not come

across as arrogant and that.

And you want to, you want to just appear genuine and honest and a

nice, likeable person that people sort of want to work with really.

And produce very good work, you know, the best work that you can, that you can do.

I think

there is, there is a way that you can do that without coming across.

Arrogant.

I think if you can clearly communicate the, the transformation

that you can offer your clients and you can share some of the.

Those client success stories, the wins, that sort of thing.

And then by default, then, that's helping to position you as, as an expert in your,

your chosen niche within architecture.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Cool.

Ian, I've really enjoyed this conversation.

Cool.

Um, it's just lovely to kind of hear about somebody else's journey.

Cause as you say, you know, everyone's, uh, journey.

Through architecture and their experiences are all unique.

So it's lovely to hear about someone else's experiences.

Ian, what's the main thing that you'd like everyone to take away from this

conversation?

So I think, I think really, you know, anyone that's struggling to get into

architecture to sort of hear this story and what happened to me and how I

struggled to get into it and, you know, looking at where I've got to, you know,

if I can do it, I think anybody can.

And, um, and not to be put off and I, and I would sort of looking back on my

career, I would think very carefully about the places I go to work, the

type of people I work with, and the type of drawings I want to produce.

And I would think very carefully about those when applying for a job, when, when

going to work with someone, think very carefully about the firms you work for.

I think that's quite an important thing.

I wish I'd done a bit more of that when I was working.

So be

a little bit more intentional and strategic about your choices.

Yeah.

I think there's that thing between staying at a firm and progressing.

And going to different firms where they do really nice architecture, where you think

I'd like to have that sort of that in my repertoire, you know, those have that sort

of experience from that different firm, which I think is really, really valuable.

That's certainly the route I went for working for different firms.

Is there anything

else you wanted to say that we, we haven't covered?

I don't think so.

I think, I think we've covered everything I can think of at the moment.

Brilliant.

Ian, there's one last question that I wanted to ask you.

I love to travel and discover new places.

So could you tell me one of your favourite places and what you love

about it?

So locally, um, Stowe Gardens, which is National Trust, is a great place

we go to as a family quite a lot.

Recently I've just got back from Scotland, um, and I did a little bit

of, uh, walking around the mountains in Glencoe, which is absolutely amazing

for anyone who hasn't been there.

And I, I sort of walked through the, uh, the Lost Valley and that sort of

inspired me to hopefully do a couple more of the, uh, Monroes around Scotland.

So I hope to do those in the future.

That

sounds awesome.

Um, Ian, could you please just

remind everybody.

Where's the best place online for them to connect with you?

So on my website, um, or a design or code at UK, that's got all my,

my links to my social media and, uh, that's, that's the place to go.

Thanks so much, Ian.

Thanks, John.

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