How One Bold Move Transformed My Architecture Practice with Carl Turner | 098
From Award-Winning Homes to Transformative Community Projects - Jon continues his chat with Carl Turner about his journey from traditional residential projects to pioneering public and community-focused developments. Carl shares the pivotal moment of selling his award-winning home to fund Pop Brixton, a transformative community workspace made from shipping containers. This bold move opened new opportunities for Carl's practice, leading to more impactful projects like Peckham Levels and Hackney Bridge. Carl highlights the importance of taking risks, embracing failure, and self-initiating projects to create meaningful architectural work. The discussion also explores the evolving nature of Turner.Works, their future ambitions, and the significance of designing spaces that people can adapt and thrive in.
—
Today’s Guest
Carl Turner is the founder of Turner Works, an architecture and urban design studio specialising in the early activation of sites and the meanwhile use of buildings. Carl has founded and set up several meanwhile projects, including Pop Brixton, Peckham Levels and Ashford Coachworks. The building of his own Brixton home was filmed by Grand Designs, and Carl has gone on to feature on Channel 4's 'Ugly House To Lovely House' as an expert in low-cost, high-impact design.
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Episode Highlights
00:00 Introduction
01:17 The Pop Brixton Project
08:03 Expanding Horizons: Peckham Levels and Hackney Bridge
09:56 Transforming Turner.Works
14:10 Future Aspirations and Stability
23:33 Embracing Failure and DIY Ethos
29:39 Travel Tales and Final Thoughts
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Key Takeaways
Taking risks and learning from failure can lead to new opportunities and growth. If you try new things, even if you fail, you will learn and move forward.
Working with others and building a strong team helps you achieve more than working alone. You do better when you share ideas and support each other.
Creating spaces and projects that people can use and enjoy is more important than just making something look perfect. When you focus on real needs, your work has a bigger impact.
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00:00 - Introduction
01:17 - The Pop Brixton Project
08:03 - Expanding Horizons: Peckham Levels and Hackney Bridge
09:56 - Transforming Turner.Works
14:10 - Future Aspirations and Stability
23:33 - Embracing Failure and DIY Ethos
29:39 - Travel Tales and Final Thoughts
Carl Turner:
After winning all of these accolades and we got to a
Carl Turner:
certain point as a practice, we still had this nagging feeling that, um,
Carl Turner:
I hadn't achieved anything that I'd really set out to really achieve.
Carl Turner:
The business plan, which was entirely wrong in terms of numbers,
Carl Turner:
but the overall idea was correct.
Carl Turner:
I said to Mary, look, there's just this amazing opportunity.
Carl Turner:
How would you feel about selling the house?
Carl Turner:
And I think we were both torn by it really.
Carl Turner:
But Mary's always been a massive supporter of, of me through my whole career.
Carl Turner:
And she, she realized that I really wanted to go for it.
Carl Turner:
We came up with the idea of selling the house in order to fund the project,
Carl Turner:
which is then what we went on to do.
Jon Clayton:
Welcome to Architecture Business Club, the show that helps
Jon Clayton:
you build a better business in architecture so you can enjoy more
Jon Clayton:
freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment.
Jon Clayton:
If you're joining us for the first time, don't forget to hit
Jon Clayton:
the follow or subscribe button so you never miss another episode.
Jon Clayton:
Last time we heard the first part of Carl Turner's career story from setting
Jon Clayton:
up a practice straight out of uni, getting hands on with construction to
Jon Clayton:
winning major awards and accolades.
Jon Clayton:
Let's pick up where we left off and hear about Pop Brixton.
Jon Clayton:
A pivotal project for Carl that opened up new opportunities for his practice.
Jon Clayton:
You could have comfortably stuck with the resi projects, which is what you'd, you'd
Jon Clayton:
built that name for in the beginning.
Jon Clayton:
But you didn't do that.
Jon Clayton:
You, you mentioned there that was, there was an itch that hadn't
Jon Clayton:
been scratched, um, and a desire to do work on public projects.
Jon Clayton:
So you actually sold your award winning home.
Jon Clayton:
You sold that, and you put some of that money into a community
Jon Clayton:
development project called Pop Brixton.
Jon Clayton:
How and why did that come about, which seems quite a bold move to me.
Jon Clayton:
Can you tell me about that?
Carl Turner:
Yeah.
Carl Turner:
And again, it was, it was a kind of accidental thing really.
Carl Turner:
And we'd built our lovely house.
Carl Turner:
We loved living there.
Carl Turner:
We'd, we told everybody when we built it, it was forever, for our forever home
Carl Turner:
because that's what we actually thought.
Carl Turner:
And I think after we'd been there for a couple of years, both Mary
Carl Turner:
and I realized that we are serial renovators, serial project doers.
Carl Turner:
And it's not that we got bored with it, but we were kind of
Carl Turner:
wondering what was next and.
Carl Turner:
We'd also hoped that in the process of building it, we wouldn't have a mortgage.
Carl Turner:
And we still had quite a big mortgage.
Carl Turner:
We had to borrow some money to finish the house, unfortunately.
Carl Turner:
'cause it was, it cost more than we thought.
Carl Turner:
Um, surprise, surprise.
Carl Turner:
And, um, so I think we, so what happened with Pop Brixton is the council
Carl Turner:
advertised in the local newspaper.
Carl Turner:
My wife's from Brixton.
Carl Turner:
We'd lived in and around Brixton for many, many years.
Carl Turner:
And they were, look, they had this bit of empty land and they
Carl Turner:
called it a meanwhile project I'd never heard of, meanwhile before.
Carl Turner:
So they wanted to do something with this bit of land for two years, and they had
Carl Turner:
an idea of like testing out, experimenting to find out whether there was any
Carl Turner:
appetite for local workspace in Brixton.
Carl Turner:
And if there was, what did affordable look like?
Carl Turner:
What, what kind of things, what, what did you need to make something affordable?
Carl Turner:
So they, they put a call out to local people.
Carl Turner:
To come forward with ideas for this site.
Carl Turner:
And it wasn't a design competition, it was to find somebody to effectively,
Carl Turner:
to build something on this site.
Carl Turner:
And um, and then to run it for a year or two, there was no funding
Carl Turner:
available so you had to fund it.
Carl Turner:
So anyway, after having a meeting with a council, a direction of travel
Carl Turner:
meeting, I went to see them and said, look, I've done this little
Carl Turner:
project with one shipping container.
Carl Turner:
So I said, I did this project at Hackney City Farm.
Carl Turner:
I've got this idea about using shipping containers in creating a kind of mixed
Carl Turner:
use campus with like food and drink and events and, but predominantly
Carl Turner:
workspace built from shipping containers.
Carl Turner:
Is that the kind of thing that you are looking for?
Carl Turner:
Because tell me now if it isn't.
Carl Turner:
'cause I don't wanna waste my time like designing the project.
Carl Turner:
So they said, yeah, it sounds great.
Carl Turner:
And um, to cut a long story short, we went on to win the project and.
Carl Turner:
Part of the bid was to put a business plan together.
Carl Turner:
And I was in that great project, uh, that great position of not knowing
Carl Turner:
what I didn't know at the time.
Carl Turner:
So, uh, in fact, the business plan, which was entirely wrong in terms of
Carl Turner:
numbers, but the overall idea was correct.
Carl Turner:
And so at that point I said to Mary, look, there's just this amazing opportunity.
Carl Turner:
How would you feel about selling the house?
Carl Turner:
And I think we were both in torn by it really.
Carl Turner:
But Mary's always been a massive supporter of, of me through my whole career.
Carl Turner:
And she, she realized that I really wanted to go for it.
Carl Turner:
We came up with the idea of selling the house in order to fund the project,
Carl Turner:
which is then what we went on to do.
Carl Turner:
So, um, yeah, we didn't, we didn't use all of the money.
Carl Turner:
We used a sort of sensible amount with the kind of.
Carl Turner:
Percentage that we thought if we lost everything, then we wouldn't be ruined.
Carl Turner:
You know, we could still carry on.
Carl Turner:
So yeah, we, we won the, won the competition, got planning, and then I
Carl Turner:
spent, uh, about a hundred k buying a bunch of rusty old shipping containers
Carl Turner:
that were 10 years old, stacked them all on the site and kind of just made a start.
Carl Turner:
So, and then I, I used the fact that it had some momentum and that
Carl Turner:
we'd started building it, and the ambition was to open it in phases.
Carl Turner:
And then I, I used that really as a sort of way to go and talk to
Carl Turner:
other people, like developers and investors, to try and find somebody
Carl Turner:
to invest the rest of the money in it.
Carl Turner:
And actually we had the money to build it if we had to, but we didn't really
Carl Turner:
want to use all of our own cash.
Carl Turner:
So, so that's how I became a kind of accidental.
Carl Turner:
Community developer and really that project was, I guess people
Carl Turner:
would call it pivoting these days.
Carl Turner:
So it was, it was a, a pivot away from residential into the potential of working
Carl Turner:
on exactly the type of project I always wanted to work on, which was a project
Carl Turner:
was entirely sort of community facing and really the whole thing designed around
Carl Turner:
providing affordable opportunities, startup space for local people.
Jon Clayton:
It, it sounds incredible and I've since had a
Jon Clayton:
look at, photos of Pop Brixton.
Jon Clayton:
I've not had the pleasure of visiting yet, but I'd, I would love to come
Jon Clayton:
down to Brixton and visit it someday.
Jon Clayton:
Because yeah, it just sounds an amazing space and, um, yeah.
Jon Clayton:
What, what a brilliant project to, to kickstart that, that
Jon Clayton:
pivot, if we use that word.
Jon Clayton:
I'm not really a big fan of that word, but that's kind of what it was, wasn't it?
Jon Clayton:
That kind of change of direction with the practice.
Carl Turner:
Yeah, exactly.
Carl Turner:
And it's it's been going for seven years.
Carl Turner:
It was supposed to be a two year project.
Carl Turner:
It's had millions of people through the door and it's had the kind of impact for
Carl Turner:
us as a practice, but I think also for the local community, but also, you know,
Carl Turner:
I bump into people from all over the world who've said they've been to pop, you
Carl Turner:
know, hasn't come up in the conversation.
Carl Turner:
And they've just mentioned something about Pop Brixton and I haven't even
Carl Turner:
said, oh yeah, I, I said Pop Brixton.
Carl Turner:
I just kind of nodded and thought this is amazing that, the, there's literally
Carl Turner:
people traveling to, to London to come and see Pop Brixton as an inspiration.
Carl Turner:
And we've spoken to people.
Carl Turner:
In fact, we've kind of advised people as far away as Japan
Carl Turner:
who've set similar things up.
Carl Turner:
And we haven't worked specifically on their projects, but they've come
Carl Turner:
in and met us a few times, talked 'em through the whole process and.
Carl Turner:
And then they've gone and kind of done it themselves, which I
Carl Turner:
think is a great outcome as well.
Carl Turner:
You know, and that's led to, so we then did another two projects,
Carl Turner:
Peckham Levels, which is bringing the same ingredients as Pop Brixton and
Carl Turner:
renovating a semi derelicts car parking Peckham that's had Frank's Bar Bull
Carl Turner:
Tennis is on the roof for like 10 years before we, we, but we took the empty
Carl Turner:
levels, so we called it Peckham Levels.
Carl Turner:
And that's been going for a few years now.
Carl Turner:
So again, predominantly workspace, but has f and b and events.
Carl Turner:
And then where I'm sat today, Hackney Bridge is the third iteration of the
Carl Turner:
same ingredients across London in Hackney, which is a, a 15 year sort of
Carl Turner:
temporary project, but it's a new build.
Carl Turner:
So it's a series of steel frame buildings built for disassembly and
Carl Turner:
again, a mix of f and b and, and drink.
Carl Turner:
And then I've gone on to do, um, a separate project in Ashford.
Carl Turner:
Coach Works.
Carl Turner:
Which I've just handed the keys over to another tenant after
Carl Turner:
running it for five years myself.
Carl Turner:
So, so yeah, really after doing kind of 10 years of residential projects now, we just
Carl Turner:
the whole practice has really been founded on these kind of public facing mixed
Carl Turner:
use campuses called Meanwhile because they're, they're kind of, you know, seen
Carl Turner:
as being a temporary use of a site, but now it's starting to really influence
Carl Turner:
the work that we're doing for, so we're now bringing similar ideas to university
Carl Turner:
campuses, thinking about how we can reinvigorate university campuses working
Carl Turner:
for Google in their massive new building at Kings Cross, doing some of the public
Carl Turner:
facing spaces on the ground floor there.
Carl Turner:
And, um, a lot of other really amazing projects.
Carl Turner:
And it's, it's all really, you can trace the line all the way back to
Carl Turner:
Pop Briton and how that, that project really blew the whole game open for us.
Jon Clayton:
Mm. A catalyst.
Jon Clayton:
That's so cool.
Jon Clayton:
And those sound like some, some other amazing projects
Jon Clayton:
that you've been working on.
Jon Clayton:
Aside from the projects, uh, the type of projects that you've been
Jon Clayton:
working on changing since Pop Brixton, what, what else has changed for you
Jon Clayton:
and for Turner Works your practice since that particular project?
Carl Turner:
I think the practice has been transformed really.
Carl Turner:
So we've been moving towards a practice which is not just based around me
Carl Turner:
anymore, which, you know, now have a co-partner, Susie Michael, associate
Carl Turner:
director, and a great team here.
Carl Turner:
So we're trying to evolve the brand.
Carl Turner:
'cause basically when I first set up those kind of first 10 years or so,
Carl Turner:
it was Carl Turner Architects, because I thought I'd say it for what it was.
Carl Turner:
I was a single architect when I started.
Carl Turner:
But as the practice has, has transformed, we've now turned a works.
Carl Turner:
The idea that we're doing works so that, you know, we were sometimes operating
Carl Turner:
projects, sometimes building them, sometimes we're designers, sometimes
Carl Turner:
we're more at the kind of feasibility stage, helping to inspire projects.
Carl Turner:
So we drop the word architect and, um, we felt that was too specific and
Carl Turner:
would, uh, not be, not be broad enough.
Carl Turner:
So I think the type of projects that we've done has changed.
Carl Turner:
I think, as I was alluding to earlier, one of the things that's
Carl Turner:
really changed is that we are now involved much earlier on in projects.
Carl Turner:
So we do a lot of visioning and feasibility work, probably around
Carl Turner:
the fringes of what traditionally will be called master planning.
Carl Turner:
So we call it what we do.
Carl Turner:
Our version is called micro planning.
Carl Turner:
So I, I call it a plan of many small things.
Carl Turner:
How can we bring agile tactics again.
Carl Turner:
Meanwhile, there's a tactic really as opposed to a thing.
Carl Turner:
So how can we get places that are maybe a bit broken and a bit, a bit,
Carl Turner:
uh, you know, lots of empty buildings?
Carl Turner:
How can we get things moving really quickly?
Carl Turner:
So what we quite often think about is matching up some local need
Carl Turner:
with some local space, and then we put the things together and try
Carl Turner:
and build a, a plan around that.
Carl Turner:
So the kind of work that we do is moved from delivery into sort
Carl Turner:
of tactical and strategic, which again, has got its own challenges.
Carl Turner:
So, you know, I do miss being hands-on on building things.
Carl Turner:
And the projects that we are building are massive, you know, big 10,000
Carl Turner:
square meter, um, workspaces.
Carl Turner:
Uh, we've just got planning for about 120 homes in the center of
Carl Turner:
Catford and the big new civic square.
Carl Turner:
That's our first big public housing scheme.
Carl Turner:
And so the, the whole nature of practice has changed with.
Carl Turner:
We, we are much more collaborative now, working with other, we work,
Carl Turner:
we work quite often as the smaller practice with bigger teams, but also
Carl Turner:
sometimes we're the team bringing the even smaller practices than us.
Carl Turner:
So I think whereas in the past we were working on our own, uh, now we're quite
Carl Turner:
often part of a, of a big team and I think we're able to deliver massive impact
Carl Turner:
with a relative, you know, we're about 15 at the moment with 15 people we're in,
Carl Turner:
we're able to, yeah, make huge impacts.
Carl Turner:
Not necessarily by building buildings, but by bringing ideas to the table.
Carl Turner:
And we're, we're also working all over the uk.
Carl Turner:
10 years ago I only really worked in London, which is where, where I was based.
Carl Turner:
And now we're, working into the north of it.
Carl Turner:
In fact, we have a satellite office in Liverpool now.
Carl Turner:
One of our team, relocated there.
Carl Turner:
So, um.
Carl Turner:
We're winning more work in the north.
Carl Turner:
So I think for me, it's less about me personally, being the author of
Carl Turner:
everything that comes from our studio.
Carl Turner:
We've got a really great team.
Carl Turner:
And so the whole way that we work is completely different from the way
Carl Turner:
that we work 10 years ago and on.
Carl Turner:
In all honesty, I've got no idea where we're gonna be in the next 10 years.
Jon Clayton:
Oh, well, I mean that, that, that sort of segues onto the next
Jon Clayton:
question that I, I had for you, Carl, which was about thinking about the future.
Jon Clayton:
So yeah, I mean, for the future of tournaments, do you have any
Jon Clayton:
thoughts on where you would like to see the practice in the future in
Jon Clayton:
the next 10 years or, or what you'd hope to achieve in the coming years?
Carl Turner:
Yeah, I think as a, as a group, we've got, we talk about
Carl Turner:
this quite a lot, like what's next?
Carl Turner:
Because we've achieved a lot and it's sometimes hard to
Carl Turner:
lift yourself up to go again.
Carl Turner:
You know?
Carl Turner:
'cause you have to have something to aim for really.
Carl Turner:
And I think in one respect we would just like to do more of the same.
Carl Turner:
So for the last three years almost we've had a plan at a kind of business
Carl Turner:
level to try and run a stable business.
Carl Turner:
So, because previously it's been all over the place, you
Carl Turner:
know, doing construction and.
Carl Turner:
Operation, it's been really hard to isolate out particular
Carl Turner:
bits of the business.
Carl Turner:
And quite often I think one bit of the business has kind of supported another
Carl Turner:
bit that's maybe not been doing too well.
Carl Turner:
So we, we are almost at the end of our first three years of really focusing
Carl Turner:
on architecture as a separate thing and setting ourselves a target of a certain
Carl Turner:
amount of revenue that we need to hit to keep our team busy, to keep us.
Carl Turner:
So basically stability has been a big thing for us.
Carl Turner:
We just wanted some stability in order to do that.
Carl Turner:
We've tasked ourselves with winning fewer, bigger projects
Carl Turner:
because it's just easier to manage.
Carl Turner:
Um, we've been, with the kind of feasibility work, we just have to,
Carl Turner:
you know, we, it's very intense.
Carl Turner:
It has to be done quite quickly.
Carl Turner:
Usually we have to throw a lot of energy at it, and then quite often it gets.
Carl Turner:
Filed away in the filing cabinet and nothing really happens.
Carl Turner:
It's quite, it's quite demoralizing sometimes.
Carl Turner:
So I think we'd like to see more projects coming through and being realized the
Carl Turner:
last three or four years has obviously been very difficult since the pandemic.
Carl Turner:
But I think this, the kind of work we do can unlock difficult viability
Carl Turner:
problems, you know, thinking about let's just do the least thing that
Carl Turner:
we need to do to get something moving rather than the most ambitious.
Carl Turner:
We definitely like to work overseas, so we've got our first
Carl Turner:
inklings of some overseas work.
Carl Turner:
We've just been doing a little bit of work with in Singapore with an arts
Carl Turner:
organization, helping them figure out how they can transform a big building.
Carl Turner:
And we think we've just won some work in Porto.
Carl Turner:
We're just waiting to sort of agree the final terms, but, um, transforming
Carl Turner:
a, a sort of semi-industrial building into an f and b and workspace,
Carl Turner:
which is right up our street.
Carl Turner:
So, yeah, I think.
Carl Turner:
What we really want to work on.
Carl Turner:
We can't put it down to one thing, but we, we want to take on ambitious
Carl Turner:
projects that make a big difference.
Carl Turner:
So we don't really care what they are.
Carl Turner:
Uh, just that we want to be able to, for us, we wanna be able to run
Carl Turner:
a stable business without kind of threatening that we're gonna, you
Carl Turner:
know, hit the buffers at any one time.
Carl Turner:
Bit less stress, but we also wanna be really challenged
Carl Turner:
with the work that we do.
Carl Turner:
We want the work to really make a big, a big impact on people's lives.
Carl Turner:
So, and in particular, if we were being picky, we'd like to do
Carl Turner:
more arts and cultural projects.
Carl Turner:
Um, that's a particular passion.
Carl Turner:
I think our Mount View drama school that, um, that we delivered, uh, maybe
Carl Turner:
five or six years ago, it's one of those amazing projects working for a fantastic
Carl Turner:
cultural organization, a new build building that's a, in a regeneration
Carl Turner:
project, really in its own right.
Carl Turner:
Just a dream, dream project.
Carl Turner:
So we'd like at least two of those every year from now on.
Carl Turner:
That would be great.
Jon Clayton:
Oh, I love that.
Jon Clayton:
I, I love this kind of ethos that you have, this sort of doing more with
Jon Clayton:
less and actually finding ways to actually get things done, even if it's
Jon Clayton:
not necessarily the most, um, how can we say, I don't wanna say not most
Jon Clayton:
ambitious, because they are ambitious in terms of getting it done, but it's not
Jon Clayton:
necessarily like design for design's sake.
Jon Clayton:
It's about finding a way to, to make things happen.
Jon Clayton:
Particularly this could be community or public projects where there isn't
Jon Clayton:
necessarily a huge amount of money, but you're finding ways to be creative,
Jon Clayton:
to be able to actually make these things happen, not withstanding those
Jon Clayton:
constraints which I think is really cool.
Jon Clayton:
Have you got an interesting story about running your architecture practice?
Jon Clayton:
Have you done something different in your business that's been hugely successful?
Jon Clayton:
Or has a failure taught you an important lesson that you'd be willing to share?
Jon Clayton:
Then why not apply to be a guest on this podcast?
Jon Clayton:
Just click the link in the show notes to send us your
Jon Clayton:
details and get started today.
Jon Clayton:
And if you're joining us for the first time, don't forget to hit
Jon Clayton:
the follow or subscribe button so you never miss another episode.
Jon Clayton:
Now let's get back to the show.
Carl Turner:
I think, weirdly, John, the, one of the things I've learned
Carl Turner:
over the years, I guess, is that.
Carl Turner:
Sometimes capital a architecture, the ones that get, you know, win all the
Carl Turner:
awards and the other architects drew over, they were, they're actually
Carl Turner:
the most challenging for people.
Carl Turner:
You know, maybe they're a bit, uh, a bit forbidding and actually
Carl Turner:
they're kind of more subtle buildings that feel less designed.
Carl Turner:
Buildings that can be appropriated by people, messed up by people.
Carl Turner:
They're, they're the ones that feel welcoming.
Carl Turner:
And, you know, that's, that's one of the success stories of Pop Brixton is the fact
Carl Turner:
that we designed it to feel undesigned.
Carl Turner:
You know, it slots into the kind of market there.
Carl Turner:
And, you know, lots of people that have got, for instance, Caribbean
Carl Turner:
roots in Brixton have said to me at the time, like, oh, wow, it's amazing
Carl Turner:
that you designed this to really fit in with a kind of jamma, you know,
Carl Turner:
this is like back home in Jamaica.
Carl Turner:
And I said, I've, I haven't, I've never been to Jamaica.
Carl Turner:
And they said, oh, there's loads of stuff built from shipping containers.
Carl Turner:
So it feels.
Carl Turner:
Really like home.
Carl Turner:
And I think that kind of low tech, low design stuff that, you know, if you go
Carl Turner:
to Pop Brixton now, it's looks completely different from when we finished it.
Carl Turner:
It's, you know, it's covered in paint and just people have made it their own.
Carl Turner:
And it's, yeah, maybe from a purely aesthetic point of view, I could look
Carl Turner:
at it and go, it's a bit of a mess.
Carl Turner:
But actually it's really just, you know, people have run with it.
Carl Turner:
It's their own, it's not a piece of architecture.
Carl Turner:
It's just a place that people love to go and hang out.
Carl Turner:
And it's, you know, we, we did lot, you know, we had lots of ideas about
Carl Turner:
creating somewhere with no Dead.
Carl Turner:
So it's a kind of space that you can weave your way around.
Carl Turner:
There's always something going on there.
Carl Turner:
You can explore it.
Carl Turner:
There's lots of design thinking there, but it's not we didn't submit it for any
Carl Turner:
design awards 'cause we knew there was no way it was ever gonna win an RBA award.
Carl Turner:
But, you know, it won, it won kind of, it won awards for placemaking
Carl Turner:
and meanwhile and that kind of thing.
Carl Turner:
Um, yeah, I, I think that relaxed way of delivering buildings
Carl Turner:
is generally what people want.
Carl Turner:
They don't want overly fussy, a building that if you mo, if you move
Carl Turner:
an object in it, it looks like a mess.
Carl Turner:
You know, they want somewhere they can live in and use.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah, that's the thing that I guess sometimes you see the, like the
Jon Clayton:
portfolio photos of, of finished spaces when they're kind of clean and, and not in
Jon Clayton:
use, they haven't got people's belongings or, or they're not, you're not being
Jon Clayton:
used by the end users and they can look.
Jon Clayton:
Totally different.
Jon Clayton:
And in sometimes there can be some impracticalities with it that actually
Jon Clayton:
fill it with people and fill it with stuff and maybe it doesn't kind
Jon Clayton:
of work quite as well as, as that.
Jon Clayton:
'Cause that's the thing that these buildings are being
Jon Clayton:
designed to be used, aren't they?
Jon Clayton:
You know, it's like we don't want to design something to just to delete it.
Jon Clayton:
Like a sort of mor solium that's got nobody in it, you know, sort of, um,
Jon Clayton:
spaces that people are actually using.
Jon Clayton:
You know, rather than it being just a sort of sterile environment that as you
Jon Clayton:
say, oh no, don't, don't move that there 'cause it doesn't look right anymore.
Carl Turner:
Yeah.
Carl Turner:
Yeah.
Carl Turner:
So I think, probably when we started off, me and Cass, we
Carl Turner:
had quite a minimal aesthetic.
Carl Turner:
You know, we were looking to kind of minimal arts and kind of pure forms
Carl Turner:
and spaces, and I still personally enjoy that way of doing things.
Carl Turner:
But I think as I've matured as a designer, I've realized that you need to allow
Carl Turner:
people more room to feel comfortable and to be able to adapt and change things.
Carl Turner:
So you'll see that our work's got a lot more colorful and vibrant.
Carl Turner:
And in a way the, a lot of our projects tend to look quite scruffy because they
Carl Turner:
get used by people and we photograph them when they're actually in use.
Carl Turner:
But I think.
Carl Turner:
You know, we try, we try to be honest about the spaces that we create and for
Carl Turner:
me, they look much better full of people.
Carl Turner:
And the accolades are the fact that millions of people use the
Carl Turner:
spaces and get to enjoy them.
Carl Turner:
And they don't think that they're going to an architectural project.
Carl Turner:
They think they're going to, they go to work at Peckham levels and then go
Carl Turner:
for a drink afterwards and then go to Frank's bar on the roof and have an
Carl Turner:
epic view over London as the sunsets.
Carl Turner:
And it's, it's part of an experience.
Carl Turner:
And the buildings become places that people want to be.
Carl Turner:
And I think especially, you know, post COVID, we think about how
Carl Turner:
buildings are, are being used now.
Carl Turner:
You know, you have to create that, those places that people can have
Carl Turner:
experiences in I is, is kind of what drives people to come into
Carl Turner:
cities still and want to go to work.
Carl Turner:
'cause otherwise they'll just stay at home.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jon Clayton:
So Carl, what, what unconventional piece of advice would you give to younger
Jon Clayton:
architects and designers out there?
Carl Turner:
Yeah, I think I would probably say that yeah,
Carl Turner:
particularly young designers.
Carl Turner:
I, I think maybe everybody in the architecture industry
Carl Turner:
is a bit afraid of failure.
Carl Turner:
And I think that, well, my career has been littered with failure, but my
Carl Turner:
success is really built on failure.
Carl Turner:
I honestly don't see how you can be successful without failing.
Carl Turner:
And I think if you try not to fail, it just means that you are not taking any
Carl Turner:
risks and that you will not innovate and things will just stay as they are.
Carl Turner:
So my advice would be if it feels a bit risky, then you should have a go to it.
Carl Turner:
And if you fail, it's, failure is a funny thing, isn't it?
Carl Turner:
You might not achieve what you wanted to, but, the success will
Carl Turner:
be that you'll learn from it.
Carl Turner:
And then if you actually then learn from that failure, then
Carl Turner:
that'll be a success next time.
Carl Turner:
So I would say, something I wish somebody had told me early on is,
Carl Turner:
look for things that you can fail at.
Carl Turner:
Embrace it because it's gonna be the fuel that will drive you forward.
Jon Clayton:
I love that.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah.
Jon Clayton:
So you either, you either win or you learn.
Jon Clayton:
I think that's the thing as well that often we, we tend to operate generally
Jon Clayton:
within our comfort zone a lot of the time.
Jon Clayton:
And it's when you push yourself outside of that and you take those,
Jon Clayton:
maybe seem slightly riskier, some of those opportunities, but it's when
Jon Clayton:
you take those risks and push yourself out of your comfort zone into that
Jon Clayton:
zone where there is that risk of failure, there's some jeopardy there.
Jon Clayton:
But that's when great things can happen, isn't it?
Jon Clayton:
And as you say, you know, if we reframe how we think about
Jon Clayton:
failure, the fact that every.
Jon Clayton:
Every opportunity to fail is, it's an opportunity to learn.
Jon Clayton:
And the bonus, it's a bonus if it works and you win.
Jon Clayton:
And that's great too.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah, that's a really good takeaway.
Carl Turner:
And I, I think the problem that architects have faced
Carl Turner:
really is a mindset which, when you do your part three, it's.
Carl Turner:
You know, it's basically you are told not to really step out of your comfort zone.
Carl Turner:
If something, if you haven't got experience in something, then
Carl Turner:
you shouldn't be taking it on.
Carl Turner:
Which I've always found, I understand why it's I guess it's kind of couched
Carl Turner:
in that way, but it's, it's such a limiting mindset and I think it's
Carl Turner:
something that Cass and I very early on, we were aware of it 'cause we were
Carl Turner:
doing our part threes and we, so we, we always, we would take a kind of a,
Carl Turner:
I think we used to call it kind of baby steps, so we would take small risks.
Carl Turner:
So we wouldn't go for, you know, I don't think I would've gone
Carl Turner:
in my first couple of years.
Carl Turner:
I wouldn't have wanted to, if somebody had said design Matt v drama school, I
Carl Turner:
just wouldn't have been ready for it.
Carl Turner:
So, but I think what at the scale that you're working in,
Carl Turner:
that you should be taking risks, you should be pushing yourself.
Carl Turner:
Because the, yeah, the only way that you can really learn, I, I do believe, is
Carl Turner:
by having, taking risks, which is gonna mean you're gonna be exposed to failure.
Carl Turner:
And I, I think architects are just really worried about failing.
Carl Turner:
You know, they're, they're, um, driven people who've had to pass
Carl Turner:
a lot of exams and, uh, you know, gone through the critique process.
Carl Turner:
And people want positive affirmation.
Carl Turner:
They don't, they don't wanna fail.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah, we're gonna start to wrap things up, Carl.
Jon Clayton:
What would be the main thing that you'd like everyone to take
Jon Clayton:
away from our conversation today?
Carl Turner:
Yeah.
Carl Turner:
I think it follows on really from taking risks that I think if I had an
Carl Turner:
ethos, it would be DIY, do it yourself.
Carl Turner:
And I think.
Carl Turner:
Really, the architecture world is a little bit stuck, and I think because
Carl Turner:
architects want to succeed within the parameters of what they perceive as being
Carl Turner:
successful for an architecture practice, are you being somebody handing you a
Carl Turner:
commission for a really cool building.
Carl Turner:
So if you can't succeed in that way, then somehow it's not success.
Carl Turner:
But I would urge all architects at whatever stage of your career
Carl Turner:
or whatever scale you are at, you know, you should be spending your
Carl Turner:
energy generating your own projects.
Carl Turner:
You know, that's what I believe in self-initiated projects.
Carl Turner:
Of course, now we've got to a point where we are being given
Carl Turner:
great projects to work on, that we're not having to self-initiate.
Carl Turner:
But in a way, the projects that we've done previously that have been self-initiated
Carl Turner:
and basically everything that I've done or that we've done as a practice.
Carl Turner:
That has had any real value as generally being a self-initiated project, something
Carl Turner:
that we were not commissioned to do, we kind of made the project happen.
Carl Turner:
So I, I think those projects are the ones that make a difference.
Carl Turner:
So whether doesn't always have to be about making money, it could be that
Carl Turner:
you identify a little community group that needs help with some things,
Carl Turner:
so maybe spend some time doing that.
Carl Turner:
But basically we just need to break the cycle of developers and clients
Carl Turner:
handing out work to us and then we're constrained by producing a
Carl Turner:
kind of set of drawings for somebody.
Carl Turner:
I think architect skills can be really unlocked and we can help
Carl Turner:
to solve a lot of problems if we actually became our own clients.
Carl Turner:
And, um, whether that's being a developer or a community champion
Carl Turner:
or, or on whatever scale it is.
Carl Turner:
I think we could spend less time doing competitions and bidding
Carl Turner:
for work that quite frankly, we probably don't even wanna win.
Carl Turner:
And, and just spend more energy actually fixing real problems,
Jon Clayton:
I love that, that is such a great takeaway.
Jon Clayton:
Thanks for sharing that, Carl.
Jon Clayton:
Was there anything else you wanted to add that we haven't already covered?
Jon Clayton:
We've covered quite a lot, but was there any other final thoughts you
Jon Clayton:
wanted to add before we finish up?
Carl Turner:
I think.
Carl Turner:
I think that's probably more or less it, I think.
Carl Turner:
Yeah.
Carl Turner:
We've rumbled around all over the place there.
Carl Turner:
It's gone some places like this.
Jon Clayton:
There's another question that I would like to ask you and.
Jon Clayton:
As you know, I, I love to travel, as do you, and I just wondered if you
Jon Clayton:
could tell me one of your favorite places and what you love about it,
Jon Clayton:
and I appreciate this might be a really tough question because there's
Jon Clayton:
probably lots of places that you love.
Jon Clayton:
Um, it could be somewhere near or far.
Carl Turner:
Yeah, it is a tough one because I visited some amazing places
Carl Turner:
and I, Mexico is a right up there, but in the end I've plumped for New
Carl Turner:
Zealand, which is somewhere I, I went, I visited North Island maybe 25 years
Carl Turner:
ago, but last summer we went there for five weeks, Mary and I, and we spent
Carl Turner:
a couple of weeks on North Island and then three weeks on the south island.
Carl Turner:
And what I like about it is it's, it's a, it's like a continent
Carl Turner:
compressed into like two small islands, more or less the size of the uk.
Carl Turner:
I just love the people as well.
Carl Turner:
Just their cando attitude friendly and it's got everything.
Carl Turner:
It's got mountains, volcanoes.
Carl Turner:
We did scenic train rides.
Carl Turner:
We flew, we landed in a helicopter on the top of a mountain and got
Carl Turner:
off and walked around the glacier.
Carl Turner:
We went well watching, we went on kind of riverboat ride, you know, kind of, yeah,
Carl Turner:
Jetboat rides and we just, I think what I like about the country is it's, it's
Carl Turner:
just an amazing natural paradise, but the Kiwis just, they've got an attitude of
Carl Turner:
getting out into nature and enjoying it.
Carl Turner:
And the whole country is really set up to allow you to access quite affordably
Carl Turner:
the natural wonders of the place.
Carl Turner:
And there isn't a kind of preservationist kind of mindset where you can't
Carl Turner:
go here and you can't go there.
Carl Turner:
So, um, I love the cities as well.
Carl Turner:
It was amazing to see how the Christchurch had been rebuilt after the earthquake.
Carl Turner:
Wellington's one of my favorite places.
Carl Turner:
Now a beautiful little city tucked into a bay with a beach and just
Carl Turner:
a really lu beautiful size and it.
Carl Turner:
Just everything about the place is, is great.
Carl Turner:
And it's obviously a great, easy, lazy travelers place if you speak English,
Carl Turner:
'cause you can kind of get by and um, I've actually been learning Spanish
Carl Turner:
for a year and a half as a result of stumbling around Mexico not being able
Carl Turner:
to really speak a word of Spanish.
Carl Turner:
So, but it could have been Mexico that came out on top, but I think,
Carl Turner:
'cause I didn't speak the language, it kind of slightly limited.
Carl Turner:
Um, but yeah, both, both amazing places.
Carl Turner:
But New Zealand is just an incredible place.
Carl Turner:
Yeah, Milford sound, we, we visited as well, which was shrouded in mist
Carl Turner:
and then we were a bit disappointed.
Carl Turner:
And then just at the last minute when we were halfway through the
Carl Turner:
sound, the mist lifted and we saw this natural wonder, this epic fjord.
Carl Turner:
So yeah, it was, it was quite a memorable month actually.
Jon Clayton:
Oh, sounds amazing.
Jon Clayton:
I was fortunate enough to visit New Zealand.
Jon Clayton:
I think it'd be about 20 years ago now.
Jon Clayton:
I spent about three weeks traveling there and I had such an amazing time,
Jon Clayton:
as you say, kind of like a continent in miniature I, and I had lots of, uh,
Jon Clayton:
different experiences you mentioned.
Jon Clayton:
We probably visited a few of the same places thinking about Carl 'cause I did
Jon Clayton:
like volcano trekking, and, um, I did.
Jon Clayton:
Skydiving and fishing trips and dolphin swimming with
Jon Clayton:
dolphins and all sorts of stuff.
Jon Clayton:
And, uh, a lot of, um, lifelong memories made on that trip.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah, it was a lot of fun.
Jon Clayton:
Haven't been to Mexico yet.
Jon Clayton:
That's still on my bucket list of places to visit.
Jon Clayton:
So, um.
Carl Turner:
we did, we did a um, a dawn balloon flight over the
Carl Turner:
pyramids, I think wan, which is on the outskirts of Mexico City.
Carl Turner:
But in a flotilla of 30 balloons.
Carl Turner:
We didn't realize it was a flotilla, we just thought we
Carl Turner:
were going up in a balloon.
Carl Turner:
But the fact that we were surrounded by, in a massive, um, flotilla balloons, just
Carl Turner:
as the sun came up was just unbelievable.
Carl Turner:
A little bit scary as well, but in a good way.
Jon Clayton:
That sounds like a lot of fun.
Jon Clayton:
Carl, I've thoroughly enjoyed the conversation today.
Jon Clayton:
It's been fantastic.
Jon Clayton:
Thanks so much for being a guest on the show and sharing a bit of your story.
Jon Clayton:
Could you just remind everyone where's the best place for people
Jon Clayton:
to connect with you online line?
Carl Turner:
Yeah, you can connect with me on, on LinkedIn if you, if you Google
Carl Turner:
me, Carl Turner, I'll come up on LinkedIn.
Carl Turner:
So I'm easy to find.
Jon Clayton:
Awesome.
Jon Clayton:
I'll make sure that we pop that link into the show notes and, um, if anyone wants
Jon Clayton:
to learn more about Turner Works, uh, the web site, URL, it's Turner Do Works.
Carl Turner:
Yes, that's it.
Carl Turner:
Slightly odd one, but also easy to find.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah.
Jon Clayton:
Easy to find and memorable, I would say.
Jon Clayton:
Cool.
Jon Clayton:
You're very welcome.
Jon Clayton:
Thanks again, Carl.
Jon Clayton:
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of Architecture Business Club.
Jon Clayton:
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Jon Clayton:
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Jon Clayton:
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Jon Clayton:
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Jon Clayton:
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Jon Clayton:
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Jon Clayton:
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Jon Clayton:
And if you'd like to connect with me online, you can do that
Jon Clayton:
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Jon Clayton:
Just search for @mrjonclayton.
Jon Clayton:
The best place to connect with me online is LinkedIn and you can find a
Jon Clayton:
link to my profile in the show notes.
Jon Clayton:
Remember running your architecture business doesn't have to be hard
Jon Clayton:
and you don't need to do it alone.
Jon Clayton:
This is Architecture Business Club.
