Build Online Visibility (Without The Burnout) with Heidi Suutari | 086

What's the first step you should take to make your

portfolio more discoverable online?

And how can you build your visibility online without the burnout?

I'm joined by Heidi Suter to help you with exactly that in this episode

of Architecture Business Club.

The weekly podcast for small firm founders who want to build their

dream business in architecture and enjoy more freedom, flexibility,

and fulfillment in what they do.

I'm John Clayton, your host.

Having spent over 20 years working in architecture, I know how hard it can

be to explain your services so people truly understand and value what you do.

Many firms struggle with this, but by sharing your stories on podcasts,

you can become the trusted voice in your market, grow your brand,

and attract much better clients.

We can help you with everything from podcast strategy and launch

production and management, podcast hosting and guesting through to

promoting and growing your show.

If you'd like to discover how podcasting could benefit your business, click the

link in the show notes to book a noob obligation chat about working with me.

Or if you're interested in being a guest on this show, email, John.

That's JO n@architecturebusinessclub.com.

Now let's meet Heidi.

Heidi Suta is the co-founder and CEO of Astate, a digital playground made just

for design professionals where architects and designers can show off their best

work and get found by dream clients.

Based in Helsinki, but running an international crew.

She's a tech and marketing pro who's obsessed with helping

creative people win online.

Heidi once got rejected from architecture school, but now she's building Archis Day.

So what goes around comes around, right?

Always learning and passionate about helping others to succeed.

Heidi's here to make sure your work gets noticed online.

And if you'd like to start showcasing your work online, head to archis

day.com and sign up, or just click the link in the show notes.

Heidi, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Thank you.

I, it's, I'm happy to be here and it's good to.

chat with you.

Oh, it's great to have you here.

Yeah, really happy to be having a conversation with you today, Heidi.

Before we, we dig into the topic that we're gonna talk about I'd

like to know a little bit about you outside of the work that you do.

Can you tell me a little bit about what you enjoy doing outside of work?

Well, outside of work, I, I love gardening.

So that, that is what I do, at least in the summertime over here.

Uh, I actually have a, like little lot of land just outside the

city of Helsinki where I crow my.

Tomatoes and squashes and uh, whatever, uh, plants and, uh, veggies.

So that, that is actually one thing I enjoy quite a lot.

So actually I'm planning to go there, go there to some, what are the

tomatoes after this podcast as well?

So.

So I, um, I, I will say this now, I, I'm not green fingered at all.

Like my wife, she's the one that enjoys the gardening.

I love sit.

It's sitting in the garden and walking amongst.

The nature and gardens, but I'm, I'm terrible when it comes

to anything gardening related.

Having said that, many, many years ago when I was a teenager, I, I did

some summer work on a tomato farm.

So that was my kind of like farm, um, agricultural experience.

So yeah, and it used to take ages once I got back home, like

cleaning the green off my hands.

But I've never, I've never gone back to it since.

So that was quite a long time ago when I did

that.

well, I, I can tell you that my, my plant or plant plantation

is way more smaller, smaller scale.

So, uh, there's only like three tomato plants over there, so,

Yeah,

yeah, we were dealing with, uh, with hundreds, so yeah, probably

slightly different scale, but yeah.

Yeah.

Great to be doing something like that though.

So Heidi, we are gonna talk about long-term online strategies so that.

You can build visibility online without the burnout.

Yeah, I think it's gonna be a great topic to talk about, are really useful

for everybody 'cause um, it is really easy to get overwhelmed with all the

different options we have online.

So having some long-term strategies we can use, that's

gonna be for great for everyone.

So just before we dig into that, could you tell me a little bit about how you ended

up here in this world of, of architecture?

How did that happen?

Well, as you said in the intro, I, I did apply to

architecture school in like 20 years ago.

Uh, didn't get in, but yeah, I started doing other things, but design

has been like always like very, I. Core and close, close thing to me.

So I have studied, um, graphic design for example, but then I have

graduated or started to do, uh, digital marketing and working with technology

and, uh, things online basically.

But I started like while ago thinking like, I want to do something else,

something else that it's like more.

More interesting that than just, uh, helping B2B companies,

uh, tech companies and create something on our own, on my own.

And, uh, I met my co-founder who is actually, he has a

background in architecture.

I. But he is currently, uh, working as that US designer.

And we came up, came together and we were starting to brainstorm different

ideas like what we should do and what's kind of things are exciting us.

That's basically how architect came through or came about.

We started to think like, okay, is there are like platforms for those

people who create, uh, digital.

Uh, stuff, digital pixels, uh, graphic designers and so on, on the internet.

There are platforms, but that for them, but they are not platforms for people

who create actual physical places.

I mean, of course there's like, arc dailies and such, uh, places,

but they are more curated ones.

And of course, they're Instagram or.

Um, bee hands, but they are not like, specifically made for

this industry or this field.

So what we were deciding that, yeah, let's, let's do a place where people

who design places, architects, interior designers, they can share their work.

They, it can be professional.

Community, so to speak.

So where you can connect with your colleagues and, um, potential employers

and also a place where potential clients can find, can find you.

So that's basically like a short background, how artists that came about.

Cool.

Well, we'll, we'll touch upon that again before we, before we wrap things up.

So.

It's interesting.

Yeah.

Both you and your co-founder, there was that interest still or background

in architecture that's kind of led you to, to where you are now.

Let's dig into then some of the strategies then these long term

online strategies that we, we can use to build our, our visibility.

Could we start with SEO how do people.

Actually search for architects online when they're looking for a practice

to work with.

Yeah, I think that it can actually start way before

they are ready to actually buy.

So people can dream or think about their like dream houses or dream

things and save your work to their own inspiration boards or wherever.

So I think that is a very good reason to.

Put your work out there to these platforms before your potential client even knows

that they are looking for your services.

So, uh, expose people beforehand.

But also, uh, I think like when they are starting to get ready

to buy and ready to look for.

Look for the professionals they're looking for.

They are using, uh, probably like, architects in your city or interior

architect, or interior designer in your city, or there are looking for certain

styles or certain types of designs.

So I think it's like super.

Important that your website's language or the language that you're speaking with

is actually matching these keywords that they are showing up in Google search.

And I think like in the future, maybe even Chachi P Search.

So it's like the similar thing actually to optimize your, uh, websites.

To those, uh, both search places basically.

So you need to talk about what you do and be very clear what

kind of, uh, services you provide.

And try to think a bit like a client that is looking for the

type of services that you provide.

And try to think like what kind of keywords I should put my website.

Okay.

Okay.

So, one of the things there that I'm picking up on is that, that people

could be thinking about a project way before they're ready to hire.

I.

Yes,

They could be exploring and, and looking for ideas online

and, and sort of doing that sort of research to kind of get ideas

and learn about what they could do.

So there's an opportunity for us to be found far earlier.

I. In that journey from them having that initial idea to them actually

getting to the point which could be way down the line when they're actually

ready to invest in working with an architect or a design professional.

So what you're saying is that if we, if we put content out there online and we

consider the types of words, the types of language that our prospective customers.

We'll be searching for when we are putting our portfolio out there or, or talking

about what we do, that then we can capture people, we can, they can be looking for

our portfolio or they could be reading our articles way before in advance.

And then when it gets to the point when they are ready to buy, we are

more likely to be front of mind when they are ready to work with us.

Does that kind of sum up what you, you're thinking?

Yeah.

So yeah, definitely people are, I think, like when I think myself, I like, I

like to do my research before and I like to dream and I like to plan things

and I do have my Pinterest boards about things I would love to have in my future

house or, or things I, things I love.

So I, I can use those, I mean.

Those are the things that if you as a designer, you put your work out there,

you might end up in the mood boards of the clients and maybe the potential

clients are loving you enough so that they are actually reaching out to you

when they, when it actually, it's, it is time to make, uh, these decisions,

uh, when they are ready to buy.

Okay,

so if we're gonna put out our work and we're gonna share our portfolio how can we

make our portfolios easier to find online?

Yeah, I think like you, well you have to put

your, uh, first thing first.

You have to put your portfolio online so that it's not buried in, in your computer.

Uh, I think like, for, well, I think like the audience for this

are more, more entrepreneurs, but if you are just or just um, or an

architect working for a company, I.

You should still work.

Uh, still put your work out, uh, out there and not just bur bury

it into, into the PDFs on your, on your computer, uh, because nobody,

it, it is not gonna find it.

So it's like if, I think it's important to use the different platforms,

different platforms, uh, whenever you are creating a new project.

So just update, uh, update those at the same time.

Same time you're updating your portfolio that lives on your computer or whenever

you have like a new, new project.

So you should have that there.

But I think like, uh, what you should definitely include, include

uh, to every case you have is the location, uh, the styles.

Challenges that you had or had with that project in that, uh, description.

So Google and all these other, uh, search engines are.

able to find those those projects.

Projects because it's, um, well Google it is still just a machine.

It is not it is not very much else than just the machine.

So, and the machine understands language, uh, written language especially.

So, um, Google is able to crawl those websites and find.

Find the information on those websites.

So the better descriptions and the, the more you tell about, uh, your

projects, it's easier to those machines.

Search engine engines to find, find you and, uh, push you out to the right

people when, uh, they're searching.

Searching for those, um, results.

So yeah, that is at least one thing.

And uh, for the website it's.

It's smart to create a dedicated page for each project that you

worked with so that you have like good images and good descriptions.

And for the websites, it's also very important that you link.

To one page to another.

And, uh, you also get links from other pages to your project.

So for example, you create like a Pinterest pin and then, uh, off,

off your project and then uh, link back to your, back to your

website or back to your portfolio.

So that's.

Makes also, uh, Google easier to navigate online to find your project.

Okay, so the first step is to not leave our portfolio of work.

Just sat on a hard drive to actually take the step to.

Take that work and publish it online.

So that's the first thing.

Then in doing that, you mentioned that it was really important to have, uh,

a good description with those images.

So rather than just that portfolio, just being some glossy photos

that's great, but like even better to make it more discoverable.

We have a, a detailed description about the project and you mentioned

there about talking about.

Some of the challenges that maybe were faced during the, the process

of bringing that project to life.

So it's, the more information we can put in there then the more words we've,

you know, Google's got to be able to find, and particularly if we're using

amongst that copy key words and phrases that our ideal customers could be

using, that then there's an opportunity for us to, to put those in that.

Description within the portfolio, which is gonna make it easier to find.

And the last thing you mentioned was about, um, the importance of the link.

So like we, we've got an opportunity to then link, um, to take that page that

we have for that project, to link it to other places and to also have links

from other platforms like Pinterest, for example, that if the images get shared

there, we can then back link it back to our, our portfolio on our website.

Yeah.

And that is actually one super important thing that a lot of

people don't even know about that much.

So it's like.

Super important to get those links, uh, links to your site.

So, so your link, uh, so your site is getting like this authority and it

shows up higher on, on Google as well.

Hmm.

So let's, let's talk a little bit about.

Pinterest about how we could use Pinterest.

Could you share your thoughts on that?

Yeah, I think like it's a brilliant tool for people

who design different spaces.

Uh, it's like one of the biggest actually, uh, search engines.

So it's not just a place to put your beautiful pictures, but it is, it

works as a, like a search engine.

So you have, you can put your pictures there.

And then you have to put your descriptions descriptions of those

pictures, pictures over there as well.

So I think it's like smart to tell about the project or tell about

that picture that you have there.

And it's ever cream.

So it is not something.

Like, for example, if you post your pictures on Instagram, it's

Instagram is a bit different.

So it, it is not people go there more to just look, look other

people or uh, look just stu stuff.

And it's like, it's not a place where you can actually link to your

website, but in Pinterest you can actually link to your website and.

Usually Pinterest is a place where people are going to find this, like inspiration

and, uh, looking for different ideas.

Ideas.

So Pinterest, I think it's, it's like super great.

Tool for architects and interior designers, and I

think it's like a bit, mm,

mm,

not like underused, but, uh, going a bit like under, under their radar.

But basically, uh, what you should do do there is post the images from

from your site or from your project.

To drive actually traffic back to your port portfolio.

So you get those backlinks, back links, uh, from Pinterest and then

also create boards of your specialties.

So for example, create a, if you are.

Uh, let's say you, you design office spaces, so you can create a different

boards about like modern office spaces for, or London office spaces.

So you should create those boards so it's, they are showing up, uh, when the people

are actually actually looking for those.

Um, ideas, uh, to pin on, uh, on Pinterest.

And when you have your Pinterest, uh, LA active, or when you have your, uh, photos

on Pinterest, actually those Pinterest posts can send traffic for years.

Unlike Instagram, Instagram or well LinkedIn, it doesn't really support.

Support, uh, visuality that well.

But well, when people, because Pinterest is a search eng engine

it can really drive traffic.

Way, way longer than Instagram because Instagram is more

like, uh, living in the moment.

Of course, you can put these hashtags and uh, whatnot, but if you, if you have, for

example, posted your work to Instagram like five years ago or, well, even a

year ago, it really doesn't come up.

Uh, come up, um, that easily because it, it is an old post, uh, but in a

Pinterest, it actually can surface when you, if, if you have, uh, created

right kind of create, if you have added right kind of key keywords.

Keywords to there, there.

So

So

I think.

It's gonna help you like long-term, with a long-term visibility, quite a lot.

Comparing to other social media channels that are, I think, a bit more fast paced.

So you need to really update it like all the time.

time

Remember, don't forget to join the wait list for

our membership community, where you can meet other business owners

who want the same thing as you.

If a thriving business that gives you more freedom, flexibility, and fulfillment.

just go to architecture, business club.com forward slash waitlist, or

click the link in the show notes.

And enter your details.

So you don't miss out on this amazing opportunity to improve

your business and your life.

And if you're enjoying the show, then please leave a five-star review or

rating wherever you listen to podcasts.

Now, back to the show.

Pinterest.

I, I completely agree.

It's, um, it's a really underrated tool.

I think you're right.

It does go under the radar.

If you're listening to this and you'd like to learn more about Pinterest, we

did an episode specifically on Pinterest.

It's probably, I can't remember the episode number, but it was with, um, a

Pinterest specialist called Faye Strange.

And it was about this time last year, so you're probably

gonna need to go back maybe.

50 episodes.

But yeah, we did a whole episode on Pinterest, so please, if you'd like to

learn more about that specifically, go and check that okay, Heidi, so Pinterest's

great and it's important, but there are other things that are important as well

when it comes to long term, uh, strategies to build your visibility online.

How about our websites?

I mean, how, how important is our own website when it comes

to building our visibility

online?

Yeah, I think it's like your digital HQ or, or your first

impression to your potential clients,

so

so it should be, Easy enough to navigate and e the p your potential

clients should find easy enough your projects and what you can offer to them.

I know that a lot of, I have, going through like a lot of

different, uh, website that are more, uh, more creative style.

Sometimes they work, but sometimes they are like super, super confusing and not

that easy to grasp as a potential client.

So there should be like some elements that are.

Or in the, like, right places, uh, to the potential clients and easy to navigate.

So they shouldn't be like, too confusing.

Too confusing.

But of course, like you should definitely show your, your style how

you work and why the, your potential clients should work with you.

So that, that, that is like super important information.

Uh, what there should be, uh, what.

You should have there.

And, uh, I think like if the, well, if the website is slow or, or confusing

so it can really, people get frustrated really fast, uh, really fast these days.

So people can just go away and click off, click out of, of your website.

If it, if it's like not working or there are not, the pictures are not

loading or it is a bit confusing.

So you should have have the website that is like easy, easy to use and it's fast.

And if you have a CEO friend sites, it's, it's, I think like it's key to

convert those people who are interested about you into potential leads.

So you should have some sort of a easy way for people to conduct.

Contact you.

So, have your information there and have, have a little box of like,

uh, how, how people can reach you.

So tho those things are, I think I. Important stuff that you should have at

least nailed, nailed on your website and, uh, yeah, to have the SEO, uh, on place.

So if you are working, let's say Manchester, so uh, you should have.

That on your website and you should have at least one dedicated place.

If you are, for example, interior architect in Manchester, you should

have a A page that you tell that you are interior architect working, working

from Manchester, and what kind of projects you actually do and tell them,

like tell there is like you cannot have or you cannot tell, like too much

information I think on your website just.

Make it like a different pages if there is like lots, lots to tell.

So put out like more pages.

Pages over there as well.

Okay, so have a site that is fast loading.

It's clear, uh, it's, it's easy to navigate and.

We put plenty of information on there, but we can break it down into a different

number of pages to make that information more easily digestible, and that once

we're clear on what type of projects and what locations we're working in,

all those sorts of things, we can start to create pages on a website that are.

Keyword optimized for you.

You said the example there, if you're like a, an interior designer or

architect in Manchester that, you know, it'd be pretty darn good to have that

written on the website, you know, um, to, to help people to, to find you.

So yeah,

absolutely.

Indeed.

And, uh, for, and if you specialize on something, if you specialize, for

example, sustainable design or you work with sustainable materials, tell that

also because I think like nowadays, people are really, uh, looking for

options that are working, for example, with sustain, uh, sustainability or,

or something, something like that.

In mind.

So tell them, tell people, and tell the Google that also, that

it's, it's able to find you.

absolutely.

So, Heidi, what about social media?

Because social media, it, it can be exhausting for some people.

They're, they're trying to like post every day or several

times a day on some platforms.

I mean, what's, what's the alternative to that approach?

Yeah, I think like, well for example in Instagram, I

think like you have to post quite often there so that your page or

your work is actually shown and seen.

Uh, but I think like people should focus on quality or quantity.

So I think like, not posting, posting daily, uh, for me, I think like.

Designers, they have like a lot of, lot of going on in their daily, daily work.

And if you are working as a entrepreneur that you have a

lot of things on your table.

So I think like you have to find the ways that you don't have to obsess

every single day, uh, to posting.

To post in a different social media, uh, channels.

Uh, one thing is like you can schedule stuff.

So there are, there are tools if you, if you want to spend like one day up.

A month to check schedule different social medias.

That is, I think that is very viable.

But I think like you should also repurpose, uh, your content as well.

So if you have a project update, so you can create like a multiple different

post about this and then you can repurpose that, that same, those same

posts like let's say hot six months later or a year later, so you don't

have to reinvent the wheel all the time.

I see it.

Uh, I see a lot of people who are posting on Instagram or posting on LinkedIn that

they are, they're actually, uh, they don't have that much of a content, but they

are actually reposting their, like old content, which is like people have short.

Attention spans so nobody's going to remember that.

Yeah.

She posted that like three months ago.

Three months ago, and now, now it's again like why is she doing that?

No.

so true.

It's, um, not only did people have short attention spans, but I

mean, statistically on most of the platforms, only a a fraction of your

audience actually will see that post.

So if you're putting something out and like.

Only 5% of your followers see it, then it makes sense that, well, surely I

should post this again so that some of the other 95% that didn't see it

actually get the opportunity to see it.

And as you say that you could have a, a selection of posts that you could.

Just do a little bit of variation maybe with the, the wording

or maybe swap out the image.

It could be directing them to the same project, case study, and you could have

that going out on, on a cycle, just recycling the same content each month.

Why not, you know?

Yes, it's more work smarter, not harder.

Uh, yeah, that's it.

Work smarter, not harder.

That kind of sums it up well, um, Heidi, could you just tell

us a little bit more about Aday?

Just, you told us a little bit about how it came about in the introduction, but

tell us a little bit more about who it's for and how we can use the platform.

Yeah, well, uh, it is for people who work in the different fields of

architecture and in their interior design.

So architects, uh, landscape architects, interior architects, interior designers.

So it is a built to solve the pro problem that, um, well, you don't have your.

Outdated, uh, outdated static portfolios sitting on your, on your hard drive

or you don't just post your, to your Instagram or keep it there.

So, and it is, well, of course you can have like, for example, your

LinkedIn, but LinkedIn doesn't really support this like, visual aspect

aspect of the show in your work.

And then they are like the hands or, or triple, but they are, they are for

most, mostly of those people who are, who are designing pixels, not spaces

for people who are designing different physical spaces, uh, to show their work.

Keep your portfolio up to date.

So it's like super easy to share your, share your, uh, profile to potential

clients or potential employers or people, colleagues or whatever.

So it's like easy.

Easy to show and show your work, share your work, and update your

work because well, when we were doing the first interviews, we.

we.

We realized, or we understood that there was already a problem, that sometimes

the, in your hot, hot drive, there is a, there is a file or folder when the, the,

uh, PDFs are named, like latest, latest, latest portfolio, 2005, 2000 something.

And it's like easy way to keep your work, uh, updated and strong.

Show to the right people.

And idea is that it's also help, helps to get you discovered by the right clients.

So people can come to ARG site and they can look for different kind of projects.

Projects and the clients, potential clients can actually

reach out to you directly.

So it is a place where your work is not buried into a ton of irrelevant content

or, or a ton of under, behind like a lot of different types of content.

So it is a place where.

When people have a need to find somebody to look, to look for architects

or look for a designer, they can come over there and search, search

and, uh, first find an inspiration.

So that's why it is important that you, that you have your work.

Shown there.

And it's also important that you, uh, have your project descriptions there so

people can actually find them, find them.

And it's also, well it's also a good place gain your gain back links to your website.

When I, when I was mentioning that, that uh, you should get that back links

to your website from other places.

So it is a great place to get tho those.

Those as well.

And I think it's like idea both for emerging professionals

and established firms.

So we are supporting, currently you can create your own personal, uh,

profile on architect, but then also you can create your company profile.

A and I, I know that there are a lot of cases where there has been

one project, but there has been a lot of people who have collaborated

on that project and sometimes people are a bit afraid to share.

Share those, um, projects if they are not like, really if it's

owned by a company, for example.

But we have tackled that so that, for example, when a company creates

a projects project on the site, they can hack, uh, those people

who have worked in that project.

So you get that credit as well.

So, uh, it'll show on your profile as a collaborational, uh, project.

So when you are looking for.

Well, if you are a person who is looking for a job, so you actually

get the credit of those projects that you have been working, uh, before.

Ah, sounds really cool.

Thanks for, for sharing Heidi, what, what's the main thing that you'd

like everyone to take away from our conversation today about the, the topic

we've been talking

I think like, um, people should treat their online presence a

bit like an ecosystem, so to speak.

So you should have your.

your.

Websites, you should have your socials, uh, you should have your, uh, portfolio.

So you should have those all.

But, uh, you should have like, um, a good and keep those updated.

All, all, all of those places and remember to update, update all those.

And I think like, uh, if you put.

I mean, you don't have to, well, you don't have to reinvent the wheel all

the time, so repurpose your content or do the small tweaks so it can

really boost your visibility and, uh, bring the right kind of clients.

And I think also descriptions and the authentic storytelling is super important.

And you should, think a bit like your client or, uh, try to think like what

your client would want to hear about these projects that you have made before.

Because it, uh, builds

trust

really fast and the more clear the descriptions are, it is.

Easier for the potential clients or potential employers, uh, to

contact you and work with you?

Got it.

That makes sense.

Was there anything else you wanted to add about the topic

that we haven't already covered?

Hmm, well, I think like people should show their

personality and passion, passion, uh, to come through because of course.

Clients love seeing that.

And,

and

sometimes I think like as an architect, you might be like too

deep into what you're doing, uh, and you're seeing it a bit too close.

Uh, so I suggest that you don't get stuck on these like technical

details or technical jargon and try to think like, the message.

That you're sending to the clients.

So clients wants clear, clear messaging and clear clear descriptions,

and the clients want to know that why you're different and why they

should work basically with you.

I love that.

So show a bit more personality

Yeah.

and and um, yeah, be really clear how you describe things.

So it's easy for.

You're the right clients to understand what you do.

So Heidi, I've got one more question I wanted to ask.

I love to travel and to discover new places.

I was just wondering if you could tell me about one of your

favorite you love about it.

Oh, well, um, well I have been, uh, traveling in Finland, uh,

into, to Lapland, but I usually don't go there in the winter time because it's.

it's.

Well, it's quite dark over there and quite cold, but I love going

there in the summertime when the sun doesn't sit down and it is super

nice and it's super beautiful and sometimes it's like super hot as well.

So, um, maybe I object to finish.

Lapland would be nice and then you can go to have a sauna over

there and hiking and all that

stuff.

Oh, that sounds fantastic.

Yeah, that's, that sounds very well worth a visit.

I shall add it to the, the growing bucket list of places to visit.

So, Heidi, thanks again for joining us today, uh, for coming

along, sharing your expertise.

Um, do you wanna just remind everybody about the, the website where the

domain, where they can find it?

Yeah, it's.

Okay.

And that is, uh, I'll spell that out actually, just so there's no confusion.

That's A-R-K-I-S-T e.com.

And I'll put a link in the show notes as well, so it's easy for

people to, to find the site.

Perfect.

Well, thanks again, Heidi.

Thank you very much.

It was a very pleasant to talk with you, John.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode

of architecture business club.

If you liked this episode, think other people might enjoy it.

Or just want to show your support for the show.

Then please leave a glowing five-star review or rating wherever you listen

to podcasts, it would mean so much to me and makes it easier for new

listeners to discover the show.

And if you haven't already done, so don't forget to hit the subscribe button.

So you never miss another episode.

If you want to connect with me, you can do that on most social media platforms,

just search for at Mr. John Clayton.

The best place to connect with me online, though is on LinkedIn.

You can find a link to my profile in the show notes.

Remember.

Running your architecture business.

Doesn't have to be hard and you don't need to do it alone.

This is architecture business club.