Building A Creative Powerhouse with Bryon McCartney | 036

What unique strategies can help you turn your architectural

firm into a creative powerhouse with a long line of happy clients.

I'm joined by Brian McCartney who shares what he's learned from founding

five successful creative firms.

In this episode of architecture business club, the weekly podcast for solo

and small firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build

a profitable future proof architecture business that fits around their life.

I'm the host, John Clayton.

And if you want a business in architecture that gives you more freedom,

flexibility, and fulfillment, and go to architecture, business club.com

forward slash blueprint and download the architecture business blueprint.

It's the step-by-step formula to freedom for architects, architectural

technologists and architecture designers.

And it's absolutely free as a gift from me.

Now let's dig into Brian's story.

Brian McCartney is CEO at ArcMark Branding and Marketing for Architects

and a certified coach through Donald Miller's Business Made Simple program.

Brian has helped over 3, 000 architects increase their firm's visibility and

influence so they can win better projects.

Brian has traveled around the world and calls himself an ArciGeek.

He has been featured in ArcDaily, ARCIbiz, Business of Architecture, Entree

Architects, Svibe Group, and many others.

You can speak to Brian directly by booking a free clarity call at arcmark.

co and I will drop a link in the show notes.

Brian, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

John, it's great

to

be here.

Thanks for inviting me.

Oh, you're very welcome.

It's a pleasure to have you here on the show.

Brian, I know that you're, uh, aside from everything you do in the world

of architecture and marketing, you're also a very passionate photographer.

Could you tell me a little bit about that pastime?

Yeah.

In 2000, uh, had the opportunity to move to Switzerland.

My wife

and I moved to Switzerland and around about that time

I had bought a digital camera.

It was my first digital camera.

And so I started taking a lot

photography, a lot of photographs as we were traveling around Europe, around

Switzerland, getting, getting to see the, you know, all the different countries.

And then all the Alps and all the, all the countryside in

Switzerland taking tons of photos.

And I actually started a small website around that time just

to share photos with family and

friends.

And I think it was about a year into it or so one of my wife's, uh, former work

colleagues, it was like, wow, Brian's taking great photos.

Has he ever thought about doing

that professionally?

And I.

And it's funny because when I worked in Chicago, um, early in

my career, I was kind of known as the compositing guy.

I had started working in, in Photoshop very early on.

And so knew a lot about how to work with digital images.

And

so kind of use that information and knowledge.

And then having worked with a lot of,

A lot of photographers on set, I learned about lighting as well.

I ended up going professional with photography for quite some time.

One of the agencies that my wife and I founded was based around

storytelling, uh, visual storytelling.

And so photography and video played big role in that.

And, uh, I also won a lot of awards and yeah, it was,

it was, it was a lot of fun.

I really enjoyed taking, taking images, creating images.

Oh, that's amazing.

I, I really do appreciate a good photo.

I was, uh, a little bit of an amateur photographer a few years ago of my

with my DSLR camera, and I, enjoy

going and looking at a few photography exhibitions if I'm in like

London or somewhere.

But that's about as far as it extends for me at the moment.

My photography seems to be mainly on my smartphone.

Yeah, that's, to be honest, that's my number

one camera these days I always

just say the best cameras, the one you have with you and the one that you use all

the time.

I ended up taking a lot more photos these days with my care, my, my,

my phone and my actual cameras.

absolutely.

Yeah, that's it.

If you've got your, the decent phone camera, most of them are pretty

decent and you've got it with you.

It's.

To be doing photography and using that rather than having something sat in

the cupboard that's gathering dust.

We're not going to talk about photography though for the whole episode as much as

we probably, we probably could.

We are going to talk about some of the key things that you have learned

over the years from founding and managing five successful creative

service firms so that architects can learn from what you've already

figured out through those experiences.

To begin with, could you just give me a brief introduction to those five firms?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, I started my entrepreneurial, uh, career.

I think it it was in my late twenties or so, probably about 28 or so.

When I first started, uh, basically freelancing, I

started out as a freelancer.

I was in Chicago.

It was the late nineties.

Websites were just starting to, you know, take off.

I was still doing a lot of print work at that time, but

I was also doing digital work.

And so i, uh, ended up becoming a full time, pretty much full time.

We, we called it permalance back then, right?

It was like, I was a freelancer.

I didn't

get the benefits, but I had the, the, had the capability

to kind of call off whenever

I wanted.

And, uh, I got paid better than most of the salary employees

because I didn't have the benefits.

but, um, I worked at Unilever.

That was, that was my

main client.

I also worked for Leo Burnett advertising on, uh, campaigns for United.

I also had direct clients like the university of Illinois at

Chicago, both their business school and their medical schools.

I did a lot of publication work for them.

With Unilever, that's where I really got my start in.

Web, design and online branding.

It was working with brands like, uh, Calvin Klein, Lipton

foods, swab, personal care.

If you're familiar with the Unilever, you know, that's, it's the house of brands.

There's tons of different products and,

and and brands within that.

So we, our team at unilever, I was the creative director

for, uh, we set the initial strategies for a lot of these brands online.

So we did the initial testing.

And then if, you know, if things were successful, it would go online.

Obviously get funded and go to a, you know, go to DDB Needham or J.

Walter Thompson or somebody like that.

But it was a lot of fun.

We got to do a lot of experimentation from

there.

I had the opportunity to go to Switzerland.

As I mentioned, um, my wife through her, her.

Company.

They wanted to start a headquarters in Switzerland.

We weren't married at the time, so I had to go find my own job.

I ended up becoming the CEO and creative director for, uh,

For weird VRTs interactive.

So vR to interactive

was based in Zurich, Switzerland.

They were a large uh, advertising group

And I, I worked with them.

Uh, you I was an employee there, uh,

for a few years, and then we, um, we decided to merge with another firm.

And so we created, we founded and created this new entity called Asai.

And,

uh, at the time, I believe we were the largest digital

marketing firm in switzerland.

We worked with General Motors, uh, Clarient, Roche, Nestle,

Knorr, uh, many others.

So then in 2006 I'd left I'd left a side.

I, uh, was starting to work on my own again.

I started a little freelance studio,

uh, in, in Switzerland.

And then in 2006, I got really busy.

I

landed a huge client and my wife who had been working with her for 19 years,

she said to me, you know, I said, I said, Hey, I need to hire somebody.

I need an assistant or somebody to help me, you know, do invoicing and all this.

My wife said to me, well, what would this person do?

How

much would they get paid?

You know?

Well, we ended up founding our first agency together and that

was called image engineers.

That was in 2006 and we worked with, uh, a lot of global manufacturing companies like

Alstom and, um, uh, Sultzer, Zolke, uh, many others.

After we moved back to the U

S in 2012, we founded, uh, be brilliant.

That was a marketing agency in

Fort myers, florida, that was really built around the needs

of small businesses, small local

businesses.

Then we started ArcMark.

That was 2016.

We had worked with a business coach and he had said to us, you know, Hey, you

need to, uh, you need to focus on a niche.

And we had recently worked with an architect and

we really liked the experience of working with that architect.

So we decided to, uh, go

all in.

We joined a local AIA, uh, chapter, started, uh, networking with them.

Architects and kind of the rest is history from that.

So that's, that's the five

that, uh, know, when our pre interview, I was, I was trying to think about

it and I actually, there was actually two other companies that we founded.

So there was a viewfinder center, which is a digital kind and education,

kind of like an education excursion.

Company, uh, that we sold off in 2012.

And then, uh, currently, I'm in the process of launching

a new coaching business.

So since I became a donald Miller certified, uh, business coach with

the business made simple program, I'm launching a new program to capitalize

on that.

So, yeah, I've a few arms in the fire over the years.

so busy boy here.

So Brian, can you tell me.

How do you approach taking action on new ideas or opportunities?

Yeah.

I

mean

I'll be honest

with you

John,

you know,

like 10 years ago,

um,

I

had a completely

different thought process

or approach

to things.

I

was,

to

be honest, I was very reactive.

Right.

And.

I

think at

that time probably frustrated

my team

immensely.

I was

constantly

changing course, constantly

reacting to ideas or,

uh,

you

know, things

that I maybe saw in

the

news

or, uh, things happening inside,

outside of my business.

You

know, a new

trend

would come

along and I'd be like,

Oh, you know, something

new

and shiny.

We got to, we got

to stop and we got

to change

course.

Like

there's a

new thing we got

to

take advantage of.

Shiny object syndrome,

Oh Yeah.

Yeah.

I

was, and I, I still

suffer from

that a

bit, but,

it

would, it would happen over

and over again, you

know, and

to be honest, I

look back on

that and

I realized I was

just

probably

immature.

I was probably insecure.

you know?

Uh,

as

well,

it

was just grabbing

at

anything

I could to

be kind of

competitive.

Right.

You know, and I, I think, I

think

I've grown a

lot

since

then.

I, I,

I

I

I now

take A much more

measured

and I would say

probably

mature

approach to new ideas

and

opportunities.

I think,

yeah,

I

think,

it's really

important.

anyone,

anybody

running

a business,

I

have

learned

that being reactive to

things,

uh,

you know, chasing

trends, technology

tools,

and I hope it transformed

my

business.

And so I

think

that's a clear

sign that you don't have a plan.

You're just kind of

winging it.

And so when it comes to new ideas, I've adopted a simple approach

and

you know, this was shared to

be me by

one of

my coaches,

Brad

Martineau.

He's with six division,

a

great guy,

super

super

smart.

And he, he actually, he sells these hats.

This

is D

A

L R decide, act, learn, repeat.

And so what that means

is.

You know, first you have to

be decisive.

You

have to make

a decision.

Is this worth

my time?

More

importantly, is it

worth

me getting distracted from my

priorities?

Right.

What's

really important

in my business?

You know,

is this

something that's going

to take

me off track?

Is it going to

be disruptive to

me,

my

team?

You know, I

want

as few

disruptions as

possible

these days,

right?

I'm not getting

younger.

I'm not

this.

You know, super multi tasker that I

used to

think I was

uh,

even though I was

probably running around

with my

head

cut off.

I want

things

to be structured.

I want

things,

I want to be

predictable in my

business.

and so

so let's say we do find

something like, I don't

know, a

new tool, new

technology.

Right.

Let's say it passes that first test

like that.

That first hurdle.

Yes, we've made a

decision.

We're

going to go

forward.

So the next thing you do

is you need

to take

action.

You need to

act.

You

need

to

figure out.

Okay, well, how

am

I making time for this

thing?

or

Or, how am I

giving

my

team time for this

thing?

How am I, what

energy and effort

am I

going to

use to focus on

this

so

that we can create some implementation

around

it?

So

it's not just a thing that

distracted us

and then

we

kind of

put it on a shelf.

How

are

we actually

going to

take

action?

And

that may

mean dedicating resources, going through training.

We don't

want

this to just be

an endless

thing.

We want to

put some parameters

around

it.

Like,

Hey, we're

going to spend two

weeks.

We're

going to

spend a month.

We're going to

spend six months, whatever that timeframe is.

We need to decide.

Once

we've

decided that

we're

going

to take action,

we need to

put some

parameters around the

action and we

need to be able to figure

out within

a

certain amount of

time

is,

are

we

going to

be

able

to

implement this

successfully?

Right?

The next thing you got

to do

is

you have

to learn.

So let's say we

did implement that.

Let's say

it

was,

it failed

or

it was a

success.

Now

we

got to

take some

time

and,

and.

and,

this

isn't just

a fleeting thing.

Like we

actually have to analyze,

like, what did we do?

What worked?

What

didn't

work?

We

got to break

that down.

We have to

learn from what we

did.

Uh,

if

we failed, why did

we

fail?

was there something,

some small

change,

some,

something

that

we could

have

tweaked to

make it

a success?

If it was successful,

Okay.

What can we do to make it more

successful?

We did one

round

of

implementation.

What are we doing the

second time

around?

And

that's

where we

get to the R

repeat,

right?

We have to

repeat, but

we don't,

we're not

just going

to blindly

repeat

and do

the same thing.

we did

before.

We want to

improve

the

process.

Now

we want

to

improve what we

did.

So,

That structure I think is really helpful

in just

getting more value out of these distractions.

You know we all

have them.

They're all

there.

For architects, it

might be like,

Oh, Hey, we're a

residential company,

you

know,

and, and we

focus on

this, but then,

Oh,

one of

our clients

works at Microsoft and now they

want

to

help.

Have

us do

a, you know, a

retreat

center

for their

executives.

Okay,

well, we've never done a

retreat.

So,

you know,

that's a

distraction.

How are

we evaluating

that?

What are we

going to

learn

from it?

Are we going to

repeat it?

Those are all important things that we have

to consider

in that

process.

So

that's yeah, that's where I'm at these days.

I love that you've, you've found a very methodical approach to this because

I think particularly, Um, people that are architects and firm owners, people

that work in creative industries often have an abundance of ideas and

we just don't have the, you know, we have a finite amount of resources.

To follow up these ideas.

So having something like what you've described where it's a bit more strategic,

there's a system, there's alignment with the overall goals and objectives

of the business before we just go and pursue the next shiny new thing.

I can definitely relate to that because.

I know myself that in the past, I've been so distracted by ideas and new things.

And, um, so it's a

really helpful structure that you've shared.

a photographer,

it

was horrible,

right?

Because,

you

know, every year

and a

half

they come

out

with a

new

camera and, you

know, it's

got all these new features and you're, you know,

it's,

it's a,

you know,

it can be

a,

you know, month

to,

you

know, three months to six

month process, Just learning how to use a new camera

and

integrating

it

into a workflow

as a,

as a

professional, at least, you

know, um, Deciding

what you're

going

to use

from that,

you know,

what new features are

important to you.

What, what, What, how is this

going

to

help you do your job

better?

Uh, those

are important

considerations.

It's not

just a toy.

It's

like,

it's like,

it's a tool

that you

have

to

use.

And

yet, you know, the more you can.

master that tool, the better you

are as a photographer.

And, and

I

think a lot of people

approach

things,

a

lot of creative

people

we

have all these

ideas.

We have all

these things that we want to

do,

but

we

can't

do them

all.

We have to make decisions.

We have to act on

those

decisions.

We have

to learn from

them.

And then

we have to figure out if we're going to

repeat them.

And that's,

that's,

that's

a great way to kind of think of

it.

Let's, let's have a little talk about sales.

I'd love to know what your thoughts are on what

architects get right and what they

get wrong when it.

comes to sales.

you

know, sales

is a really funny word.

in the world

of

architecture.

I

think,

I think

architects

have gone

out

of their

way

to kind of

remove

it from

their vocabulary.

You don't hear

a lot about

sales

in the profession.

I think they

they, even.

You know,

they've

come up

with some other

words

like qualification

or,

you know, business

development, uh, one of My

favorites, it's

like, okay, nobody really can explain that

to me.

You got

contract

negotiation,

uh, customer

success processes, uh,

shortlisting,

you got

seller

doers, right?

You know, you got all these

different

Terms

that,

you know, Try

to soften the

idea

that we're

actually

selling.

But at

the

end of the day,

that's

exactly

what you're

doing.

You're selling

your services in

exchange for,

and

that's, you know, it is

a

sales

process

and

it's

some power,

you know, at some

point, I guess the profession

decided that, you know, sales is smarmy, you know,

it's

like, you

know,

they're thinking that you use car guys And

whatever.

I think you know a lot

of professionals kind of

share

this opinion

that this idea of

sales is kind of icky,

Right.

And, you know, when

they

think of sales, they think of somebody, you

know,

like that use car salesman, So they're performing wallet surgery, right?

They're trying

to

get the most

out of,

out of the

customer as they

can,

And that's.

This

is where I think our our, our views on

sales have to change.

Sales

is not about extracting the most money

out

of the client.

It's

about

creating

solutions for

them, right?

You are

not, you're not selling a

product as

an

architect.

You're

selling

a solution.

You're selling,

um, a new, a

new

workspace

That's

going to

energize your

employees

is

going to

make them

proud,

going to

make them

more

productive.

It's about

providing value for

your clients.

That's what sales is.

What's that problem that

you're going to

solve

for them?

That's what you're

selling.

I think a lot of

architects

struggle with

sales because they

are convinced that clients

are coming

to them

for design.

They

don't, that's not what they're

coming

to for.

Mr.

And Mrs.

Jones

do

not wake

up

one

day and look at

each other

and

say, honey.

We need to hire an

architect

to redesign

our

house to

make it the

most

spectacular home in the

neighborhood.

That's not what they're, that's not what, like,

design is not the first thing that

comes to

their

mind.

I mean, there may be some people

that do,

but that's

going to

be the

oddball.

You

know, 90

percent of

your clients,

they

are much more focused

on You know, how, how do we need

to change

this home to

fit our

lifestyle?

The,

our lifestyles

changed.

We're doing

different things.

We're doing more entertaining.

We want our grandkids to come

visit.

We need to

redesign

our home to

fit

our needs.

It's

about

solutions.

And if you can't,

if

you can't,

connect your

sales

process to

solutions,

then all you're competing

on is price.

And that's where you don't

want to

be as

an

architect.

You

don't want to be a

commodity.

You want to be a problem

solver.

That's

what you were trained

to do.

That's what

you need

to

sell.

So yeah, that's

that's my

view on

that.

But

I, mean,

I couldn't agree more.

I think if we can Encourage people to move away from this idea

that sales is something really sleazy and it's a dirty word.

It isn't.

It's like if

you don't

get sales like you don't

have a business and actually like rewiring your brain, you mentioned there about it's

about solutions.

And I think that if we can think of it that we are, you're

helping them, you're helping them solve a problem in their lives.

If we think about it that way and okay, some money changes

hands and there's or, or.

Yeah, we're in

their

business, right?

Like I have

a, I have

a client

in

Sarasota,

uh, here in Florida

And,

uh, you know,

he

helped his

client redesign this restaurant.

It's an outdoor restaurant.

You

know,

it's on the coast in Florida.

They were able to triple their liquor

sales

because

they could seat

more people

in

the

bar

because they

had indoor

outdoor

seating.

They

increased the capacity of

their kitchens

so they

could serve

more

tables

at

a

time and completely, uh, uh,

their business.

I think, I dunno, I know, the liquor sales

tripled.

I think the overall revenue more than

doubled, uh,

just because

of

that, just

because of this architect thinking

about

like, okay,

how do we

solve

these problems?

How do we get more people?

How do we get more

butts in seat?

How do we get more

people ordering

drinks?

Right?

And

that

type

of thinking,

I mean,

I think

clients really

appreciate that.

that's

that's where you're

you're looking beyond

like, okay,

yeah,

we're

going

to

redesign

this.

But the design

has

to be

the solution.

You

know, it's,

it's the

solution

to that

client's

problem.

that's, what

we need to focus on.

If you,

you won't have a problem selling that.

I think if they can if architects can communicate that value, if they've got

projects that they've done, like you've described to be able to communicate

that and quantify that as part of that sales process, it's going to be so much

easier to get sales and to be able to charge more for the services that you.

offer.

can we talk a little bit about strategic planning?

You know, what role has strategic planning played in the growth

of your creative service firms?

Yeah.

You know, I

was talking earlier about being

reactive and strategic planning

is really,

since we've

started

doing

strategic planning,

I

think we

started

doing strategic planning about eight years ago.

Even though I've been

running

businesses for a long

time

since, you know, like 1998,

I

only

discovered

strategic

planning in the context of how

it can

help my business

about,

um, About eight

years

ago, you know, before that,

I,

you know,

we had done

business plans

and

things like

that.

you

You do

it, you

put it on

a shelf

and then

it's

like

it sits

there and

stares at

you

and

you're, you know, you know, you

need to look at

it

every

now

and

then, but it's not

something that's

in your face.

But,

I started working

with

this coach.

his

name's Brent

Weaver.

He's with

a

company

called you gurus.

and,

um,

he

introduced

us to strategic

planning, uh,

and,

you know, in the

process, I think what happened is we went from

being

this

reactionary kind of

business to being

this

business

with

purpose and determination.

Remember.

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Now, back to the show.

You

know, by, by clarifying

our goals, by

setting,

you know, benchmarks for where we

wanted

to be

in 90

days, in a year,

in three years, in 10

years,

uh,

it gave us

a sense of

purpose and identity

as well.

Like we,

we

now

feel it

felt

like, Oh, wait a minute.

Hey,

you

know,

if we're

going to,

if we're going to accomplish

these goals, what does that say about

us as a business?

Right.

And, and,

and, and, and,

and

as

a result

over the

last

eight years,

we've been way more

successful too,

way more

consistent,

I

think that,

You know, I think a lot of

people struggle

with

strategic planning because they see it as

this like

complex,

boring

process.

you know,

we

got to

get

every,

all the, everybody together.

We

gotta, you

know,

hash out all

our ideas.

and.

You

know,

my wife

and I, we do our

strategic planning

every 90 days.

It

takes us

1 to 2 hours

max.

We, We, we, we, follow a

system.

It's

anybody

can look

this up.

It's based on

the entrepreneur.

entrepreneur operating

system.

There's a

book out there

called traction by Gino

Wichman.

If you go to their website,

you'll

find

it's called the vision traction

organizer.

It's a It's

a framework for doing

your strategic

planning.

It's fantastic.

And

instead of

like taking in all these considerations, what it allows

you to do

is focus

on

the

drivers

of

your

business.

Now we've identified for architects,

there's.

Basically five

key

drivers.

There's

there's

project inquiries,

there's nurturing prospects, there's,

uh, there's the

contract

and and, and proposal stage.

uh,

You

know, how do we

sell, how do,

how are

we

converting them

into a

client?

Then there's the

delivery

of

the project.

And finally,

there's the

retention, the, the,

you know, are we getting

them

to

give us

a referral?

Are they coming back for another,

uh, project?

I

have

done this

planning.

I, you know,

I,

I think, you know, that I'm,

I'm,

I'm kind of embedded in the entre

architect

tech community with

Mark LePage and his community.

I'm

a I'm a coach within

that, uh, within that,

community.

And

we've

done this planning, uh,

session with that community.

And, you know,

we've had, I've

had people come to me later

and say,

Oh my

God, this

is

amazing.

I,

I,

you know,

uh, one of

them

was a client of

ours.

He, so,

so

just

to give you an example,

he,

ever since he

started

implementing this, he has

hit

his resume revenue goals

every

quarter.

Uh, he lost 60

pounds because he applied

it to

his personal life.

How great is that?

Right?

Like he, he

said, you

know, I

need to

be

healthier.

I'm going to create

a

strategic plan

for my

health.

And he's seen a

lot

of success.

So, you know, I

think I think we

have to

remove this idea

that strategic planning

is

this like cumbersome, uh, You know.

Complicated process and look at it as something

that we

have to

do as a routine,

as

a.

It's just something

that's

a responsible

part of

running a business.

Right.

And,

and doing That in a systematic way

So that

we,

we can find, we

can gradually

tune

our business over time for

the

success that

we

want And have that purpose and determination in the process.

Yeah,

agree more.

I did a podcast episode recently about writing business plans.

And, um, one of the takeaways from that was that, um, the first time I wrote

a business plan, it was this really long, lengthy document that sat in a

drawer and gathered dust for many years.

And, upon reflection, it was, you know, not the best way to go about

business, whereas really, you know, that, that's Document, whatever you

want to call it where you set out those, um, your vision and your mission and

your objectives, that, that should be something that's actively reviewed

throughout the course of your business.

That

you're, you're actually, you know, monitoring your, your, success,

working towards those goals.

So yeah, very,

very important.

Yeah.

I think, I think the more clarity

you can

have

around what's important, what the

priorities

are for your

business around your, you

know, around your purpose, your plan,

you know, I think, you know, the more

success you're

going to be able

to create,

you know, it's like, like I

said before,

instead of

being

reactive, instead of

dealing

with all these

distractions,

what, what are you able

to focus on?

What

is the one thing

that

you're going

to

move, do to

move your business forward

over the

next

90 days, a year, whatever, whatever

timeframe,

uh,

you decide,

uh, how, how are

you

know, creating a

plan for that is really important in business if you want to succeed.

How do you build trust with clients?

this.

is a great

question.

And

it relates to

what I, what I,

what is a bit of a soap box issue for

me.

I have, a

big

pet

peeve.

Uh, so a lot

of

architects will

complain.

I see

it online

in

forums.

I see it,

you

know, they, they tell me this when we

talk.

They

complain that they,

they

sent a

proposal

and never heard back from the

prospect.

And this is a

pet peeve because

sending a

proposal and

waiting for a

response is probably one of

the

biggest

mistakes

you can

make.

And everybody

does it.

Everybody.

You're just setting your process up for failure

in

sales.

Uh, trust

is the

most important

currency you

have, and

you have

to build

that

trust.

It's not something

that comes

because somebody visited

your website or somebody

got a referral

from

you.

You have to build that

trust.

So when you

send

them a

proposal

and give them

time,

You

know, you're,

you're telling yourself, well, I'm just

being

polite and I'm

not,

I'm taking

the pressure off

and whatever.

However, that

client

still

has questions.

They still

have concerns and

now

you

left

them on their

own

to

kind

of figure it out

on

their, uh, by themselves.

So

years

ago,

Kelly and I,

we had the same

problem.

My wife, Kelly and I, we

had the

same problem in

our business.

We were sending proposals

and people were ghosting

us

crickets,

no

response.

Right.

It was

like, Oh, let's just send another

proposal

into the

black

hole of, you know, of nothingness.

Right.

And.

We

went

through a

similar process.

You know,

they,

they,

would contact us, say, Hey,

we're

interested

in doing a

project,

a

website, a

logo,

whatever,

you

know,

they

would come into our office or we would go

to them,

we'd

have a nice long meeting,

maybe

maybe

an hour,

maybe

two hours, we collect all this information

and then.

the

expectation

was that we

were

going to go

away.

We were going

to create a

proposal

and then we were going to send

it to them.

Right.

And

we did this

over and over

and

nine times out

of

10,

nothing, nothing, zero zip

zilch crickets, no response.

Right.

And we knew

that, you know,

here's the problem.

All they knew about

us.

We

had

met met together

for, we had a

meeting,

uh,

we

inundated

with

questions.

Maybe there

were a few

calls or emails

afterwards, but they didn't know

us.

we were,

and

as a result, we ended up

starting to ride this cashflow

roller

coaster, Right.

It

was like,

Getting us, you know,

like

doing, trying to, trying to,

get

to more

people to get more opportunities to send them proposals that we weren't

going to

hear

back

on.

right.

And

hoping

that

one out of

10 of those

was

going to

land

and we were going to get a

job.

And so we had to change things.

We ended

up, um,

this business

coach that I

mentioned,

Brent

Weaver.

Uh, had a

bootcamp on how to revise

your sales process, and

I

loved

it.

It was,

it was amazing.

It completely transformed how we

approach prospecting

sales

and onboarding.

And

since then we've developed a much more, a

much

improved process where we

take people through

clear

steps.

In our process, like

if you

want

to be a

client

with ours, there's

there's

actually three

or four steps.

You

got to go through

just

so that we can get to the

point

of, hey, let's

have a

discussion about

actually

working together because we

want

to

educate you.

We want

it.

We want you to

know how we're

going to

work.

And

at the

same

time, we're

using those

opportunities.

to collect more information, to give them more

opportunity to ask

questions

and

also to build that trust.

What what Brent

taught

us

in that,

uh, bootcamp was that trust equals interactions over

time.

And so what

that What that means is that in

our process,

we have,

we have more

steps.

They're

typically shorter

steps.

They're, They're

they're

compartmentalized.

They're designed,

each

step

is designed

to

produce

a

certain result or,

uh,

give

us certain information.

And the way we

position that

to

clients is

like,

you know,

Hey, we have a

process for how we work.

Clients love that.

Oh, you

have a

process, right?

Yeah.

If they

ask us for a

proposal, we say, no, we don't do

that.

That's, that's not how we work.

We're

going to

go

through

our process

And

the value for them is

that they're going

to get a much

more

complete, much

more valuable.

Uh,

outcome from us.

and so at the end of the

day, we're, we're taking them through this process.

Giving them the opportunity to

ask

those

questions, to address their

concerns

and

for

them

to get

to know us

better.

Each

of those

interactions, we have, we have a

little bit of report building.

We have a little

bit, you know, tell

us a

little

bit more about

how

you got started

and so

forth.

We're

getting

to know

each other and that is

getting them to

be more comfortable.

It's

getting

them

to understand who we are

and how we

work and our

approach to things.

And So, yeah,

that's how we

approach

building trust.

And,

A

lot

of people,

when they

hear this, they go,

well, God, that sounds

like a lot more

time than just sending a proposal.

And yes, it,

there is a

bit of

a

time

add

to

that,

but nine

times out

of

10, those clients, those

those

people are

becoming

clients.

So that

extra work

gets extra volume and

extra money

in

our

pockets.

And that's,

that's,

that's,