Digital Marketing Essentials For Architecture Practices with Ayo Abbas | 038

You struggling to make sense of digital marketing, or

maybe you wondering how to leverage social media to boost your brand

visibility and lead conversions.

Then stay tuned for my conversation with marketing consultant, Iowa bass.

In this episode of architecture business club, the weekly podcast for solo

and small firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build

a profitable future-proof architecture business that fits around their life.

I'm the host John Clayton.

And if you want a business in architecture that gives you more freedom, flexibility,

and fulfillment, then go to architecture, business club.com forward slash blueprint.

And download the architecture business blueprint.

It's the step-by-step formula to freedom for architects, architectural

technologists and architectural designers.

And it's absolutely free.

As a gift from me.

Now let's discuss digital marketing.

Iowa Bass is an award winning built environment marketing consultant.

She has 23 years experience working across the real estate and

construction sector for major firms.

Io founded her own consultancy business, Bass Marketing, offering B2B marketing

strategy and content creation services.

And I was named as the overall winner for the Digital Woman

of the Year Awards in 2022.

She also hosts her own podcast, The Built Environment Marketing Show, that shines

a spotlight on marketing best practice.

And in 2023, I was honoured to be an RIBA London Awards judge

and named as an Architectural Trailblazer by Architizer Magazine.

I welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Hiya John, how you doing?

You all right?

I'm really well, it's great to have you here.

It's great.

I was listening to episodes this morning.

I was like, oh, yeah, I know this person.

Yes,

well, also we've, we've just been talking about the, the

episodes on, on your podcast, on the Built Environment Marketing Show.

We have, this is a collaboration together, isn't it?

Where we've, um, put episodes out published on the same day.

So if anyone who is listening to this episode, and if you enjoy what you

hear, want to hear more from me and IO.

Having a great engaged conversation to help you guys out.

Then go ahead and go and subscribe to the built environment marketing show

and go and listen to that episode to

Yeah, so it's like a two parter, isn't it?

But done across our two podcasts, podcasts, which is a concept I'd heard

of and I thought that's a really good way of doing it So yeah, definitely.

absolutely one.

I'm so glad you suggested it because it's just gives us some time to

have a conversation together and get to know each other a bit better.

So, um, I'd love to know, like, I see a lot of what you do.

in your business.

I'd love to know what you do in your free time.

What do you enjoy doing in your free time?

I actually love to cook.

So even when I was working in the house I used to come back after a busy day

and I would quite happily stop off at the supermarket on the way home

and then just dream up something.

So I am one of those people that where my friends, cause I'm not always great

at inviting people over admittedly, but like my friends would actually

invite themselves over for dinner.

So like buying ingredients and then doing slow cooking stuff.

And to be honest, I can make most food apart from Nigerian food because.

Growing up, I figured out if I learnt how to make Nigerian food,

I'd always have to cook at home for my family and my brothers.

Because I was the youngest and I was the only girl.

So yeah, that's the one type of food I can't do.

Everything else, I'm pretty good.

Is that more a won't do rather than can't do?

I've never learnt.

So actually, there's loads of stuff my brothers can cook that I can't.

When it comes to Nigerian food.

And my mum's passed away, so I can't even get the recipes off her.

But, yeah.

so yeah.

But, you know.

So I do actually go to members of my family's house if I want Nigerian food.

oh, that's nice.

It sounds like, sounds like you, um, you have a full house with your

friends just inviting themselves over.

I mean, that must speak volumes about the, uh, the quality of your

That's what they used to do.

They'd be like, can we come over?

But no, it is, I do, I do love cook.

And yeah, now I just, if I feel like cooking, I'll just make something

and have it over a couple of nights.

It's all very nice.

But yeah.

We're going to have to move on from this topic because

I'm starting to get hungry now.

What we're going to talk about, we're going to talk about digital marketing, uh,

so that solo and small architecture firm owners can understand what opportunities

digital marketing offers and, uh, how they can take advantage of it.

So, I think a sensible place to start would be with the basics.

So what is digital marketing?

So I love these questions, which I like the basic questions,

but was like, let's Google.

What does Google say?

So HubSpot who are a huge kind of CRM provider in terms of marketing.

So their definition is digital marketing, which is also known as online marketing

refers to all marketing efforts that occur on the internet, which

actually, I think is a lovely way of thinking about it and quite simple.

And so the types of channels you'll be talking about and using would be

things like search engines, Google.

Bing, whatever you're using, uh, social media.

So that could be Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, who knows email, which

I don't think we use as much as we should in our industry for marketing.

And of course our websites, which kind of connect it all together.

So that whole, I like to use kind of like ecosystems, that whole digital ecosystem,

which all kind of feeds each other.

So I think how you kind use that and use that to your advantage.

That's the main thing for me.

So if we ever hear any consultants or the business owners

talk about digital marketing, digital marketing strategy, that encompasses

everything that we could be doing in the online world to market our

business and market our services.

Yeah.

And I think that's the thing is like, as, especially with COVID, I think

it's showing people what's possible.

And I guess before it was always in, in the built environment, people were

always like, Oh, it's to be face to face.

I've got to go and see that to win that piece of work.

It's like, actually, do you know what?

Do you really, is this the best use of your time?

And actually there's a lot you can do in digital that can kind

of fast track you to that sale.

And I think that's where we.

We are behind many other sectors, if I'm being honest, and that's

where the opportunity lies.

And using that to propel what you do in person, that, that to me is like the

sweet spot for us and the opportunity.

I love the way that you've described that, that, It sounds like

there's an opportunity to leverage some of the more traditional methods of, how we

interact with our customers and prospects and that you could use digital marketing

to leverage your time on those sort of traditional in person meetings and things.

And they can work together, can't they?

They can integrate as part of an overall

Yeah.

And I think, and I think that's, that's the key.

They integrate together.

And I think, I mean, for me now, I mean, over COVID, I really got into LinkedIn

heavily and doing loads of stuff online.

And now when I walk into events, I do get people come up to me and go.

Either they know my voice or they know who I am and they will start that conversation

and it just, it just fast tracks you.

It fast tracks relationships and I think you don't underestimate the power of that.

Imagine how much easier and how much more comfortable you would feel as

a person walking into a room that actually people know who you are

or know what you're about already.

It's just, it's so much easier still.

Oh, that is so true.

I, I had that experience recently at the, the Atomicon conference where we

met in person that I, I mean, it's not even an industry specific conference.

It's a small business owners, but I had that, that, um, there was a lot of

people that had listened to my podcast.

I didn't realize some of the people, like they'd seen me on LinkedIn

or they'd listened to the show and they knew me and they were like,

Oh, John, it's great to meet you.

And I'm thinking.

Have we met before

Or they quote stuff back

to

you and you're like looking at them going, huh?

When did I say that?

As I'm often doing, I'm like, oh, how's

Yeah

your son?

I'm like, huh?

But

Okay, yeah, it's it's a little bit, it's a little bit,

can be a little bit unnerving.

You think, you're not some kind of like stalker or something are you?

It's not all going to start going a bit kind of psycho or anything.

But particularly if you if you are somebody that's more introverted, like

to walk into a room and to have people that, already are familiar with you,

it just really helps break the ice.

So your digital marketing efforts can help with the in person

stuff as well, can't they?

It's

I think that's the bit that we haven't as an industry

gotten onto that well yet.

And I think if you start to do that, so your digital presence boosts your in

person presence, the two of them working together is definitely a compound.

Yeah.

So let's talk about some of the, the common myths and misconceptions.

I'm sure there's a few.

What springs to mind?

I think the first one was that you need loads of budget.

I think there's, there's a lot of opportunities now in terms

of digital that, you know, email is relatively low cost.

You can, you've got free email providers, in terms of packages or

you could, you know, low cost ones like MailerLite and things like that.

where.

can easily start develop a mailing list and start mailing people on a

regular basis, and that doesn't have to cost you a whole ton of money.

So I think that, you know, it's very, very effective, and there's lots of

different ways that you can target people.

So budget.

You don't need a huge amount, and you can compete, dare I say it with big boys,

you can compete with larger firms and still get that reach and that breadth.

So yeah, I think it.

Budget is one thing that you need to have tons of money to market your business.

Digital has really helped level that playing field.

That's really cool.

So if anyone out there is thinking you need a ton of money and you're going to be

having to throw um, Hundreds of pounds a month at Facebook advertising or something

like that, That that's just not true.

There's, there is an opportunity for people to get started and to leverage

their digital presence, um, without having to spend a ton of money on it or

any money potentially, if they've got the

Depending what it is.

Exactly.

And is that it's a time?

Is it your time?

Or do you throw money at it?

That equilibrium that you can have?

And, and I think that's it.

I mean, it might be that, you know, like you could do like we said, when

I interviewed you and you talked about you had a course that showed you how

to do something, you can get some, do a simple course on Facebook ads, then

do them yourself, or get someone to set them up for you, then you run them.

So there's always those things that you can do to kind of make it easier to do.

But it doesn't have to be a ridiculous amount of money, I think.

So yeah, budget was definitely one.

Cool.

We've talked a little bit about some ideas there, uh, about how small

practices and architects could, could could do that, utilize digital marketing.

So what opportunities does it offer the average sole practitioner architect

or small architecture practice?

What are the different opportunities available to us with digital marketing?

So aside from the one I said earlier about, it's your

chance to get more visibility and you can get yourself seen.

I think, for me, I think one of the big opportunities for social

media is, just, and is It's harder and harder to get visibility.

And I think an opportunity actually is to actually pay to get some,

um, I don't think there's any free platforms anymore that, if you look

at it, instagram reach has gone down.

If look at it, LinkedIn, their reach is starting to drop off.

They're all businesses and they're all out to make money.

So I think.

It's using digital marketing, looking at the platforms, looking at where you can

invest small amounts to, to, to really kind of boost your brand awareness.

And I'm going to say brand awareness rather than just

leads because I think everyone's like, Oh, it's just about leads.

It's like, actually the key, the best way to advertise is actually

to raise your brand awareness.

People understand that you're there.

They know they like, they trust you, like we said about doing digital.

And then you switch to lead conversions, getting leads and generating leads.

Because once people want to know who you are, then they're more open and

receptive to what you have to say.

So for me, it's that kind of opportunity of where can I, You use small amounts

of paid to boost what I'm doing.

I think that's a huge opportunity.

Yeah,

even if we've got uh, a small amount of money to work with,

if we spend it in the right areas, then there's a lot that we can do to

help boost our brand's visibility and ultimately, I mean, ultimately, we're

not running charities, we are running businesses, eventually what in the leads,

but if people don't know who we are, then they're not going to buy from us.

So.

no.

And that will mean your leads will cost more because people

are less likely to convert.

So actually, if you look at it, investing, in some brand awareness,

then switching to leads, it means your actual overall conversions and

lead costs will actually go down.

So it's all of kind of that kind of stuff, which is probably is worth

talking to someone who specializes.

In ads, just to kind of understand the, the, the theory behind it.

Cause it's not something that I specialize in and I respect that do,

but I think it's just that thing of just knowing how to get the best,

the best value from your investment.

While we're on the subject of investment, do you, do

you have any thoughts on how much that small business owners should be

putting towards their marketing if they are going to spend some money?

Is there a, do you have any guidelines in terms of a percentage of revenue?

Is there a sweet spot?

Do you think?

I think it's, you tie that back to your strategy, right?

If you're looking and it's also, it is that equilibrium, how much you want to

do yourself and how much do you want to pay for how fast you want to get there.

And I think it's, it's looking at those questions.

And then thinking actually what's my priority and my goal and you know that

if I need to get there next week then actually I'll probably just pay someone

to do that for me because it will get me there quicker or you know like so that's

what I think you kind of need to think of and also I think it's been you know do

a few things do them well and focus your efforts and your money and your resources

but you know for example if you've a project in I don't know Broccoli in South

West London, say a Resi project, and then you might turn around and go actually

I want to talk about this project.

We just had a photos done.

What I'm going to do is I'm going to target residential owners in that

area and spend 200 quid on Instagram.

And that, that could lead some lead.

I think it's more about you thinking about what assets you have and what you need

to push and what goals you need for that.

And then investing.

And I think, at times that might be quite high, at times it might be low.

And I think, you know, you, you will have peaks and troughs, but

percentage wise, I don't know.

It depends.

I think it's, it depends is my answer.

It's okay.

It depends.

is fine.

I thought that might be the case, but I thought I would ask anyway.

I thought it was an interesting point that you just made about where you can, how

targeted you can be with digital, because that's, I think that's a point worth

mentioning that particularly things like Facebook any of those social platforms.

You can be so specific with where you target, who sees

those ads in what locations.

It's almost like Big Brother type scary when you understand how it can work.

I mean, yes, no, I mean, Instagram is Instagram's

on a kind of a slightly kind of weird legal voyage at the moment.

So anytime you go into the platform, the, the business campaign manager that

you do ads fire is changing all the time and they are looking down more stuff.

So it's not quite as you can't go as hyper focused as you want, but if you

had more budget and you were going for commercial, I would say LinkedIn is

worth looking at because you can make.

Types of company, job titles, location, size of company, like, and you can

sort of sit there and build out your ideal, ideal target audience and go,

this is for this specific audience, or I'm running a webinar and I know

I want to speak to these commercial directors based in London South East,

you do this and you can do that.

So I think, I the world's your oyster, more on LinkedIn now

than Facebook in a way though.

Oh, interesting.

LinkedIn's my favorite social platform as well at the moment.

So maybe I should have a look at that too.

Yeah, no, but it is a LinkedIn ad and they've done it.

They've also done thought leadership ads now.

So you can, I'm not an ads person.

I don't want to keep doing that, but you can do, but you can do, um,

for each pad so you can actually boost a person's posts as well.

Not boost it.

It's not boost.

It's like it can actually advertise.

So

yeah,

Oh, that's cool.

yeah, That's new.

Yeah, I like that.

How, we talked a little bit about strategy there.

How important is it to have a digital marketing strategy?

Yeah,

you, I would say you're, it's important to have

an overall marketing strategy.

So the digital will fall into that in terms of channels.

Um, you might, for example, if you're doing a lot on LinkedIn or a certain

platform, you may go on and do a couple of pages on that specific

platform as to what you're going to do.

But I think having an overall, what's my goals that I'm trying to reach?

What business I'm to, who do I need connect who I partner with, what products

I've got coming up, all of that stuff.

I think for me, I think doing a plan is more about just.

It makes you take stock.

So going through the process is a good thing, even if you don't look at it

all the time, but it makes you take stock and just think about that stuff.

And I think for me as a business owner, I think that's really

useful just to know, right.

Am I on the right track?

Actually, am I following what I need?

But it also gives you that good, those guardrails as well.

So when something crops up and you go, Actually, is helping me

to get I need to be, or is it taking you to where you need to be?

So it gives you that sense check as well.

So I do think it.

Setting a plan is useful to have those big picture kind of, you know, a reason

to look, look at what you're doing.

Yeah, I think definitely it's worthwhile doing it.

You mentioned there about this, like from a personal point of view, that the

exercise of just, if you're going to do it yourself, the exercise of just doing the

brainstorming and writing it all down you can do it yourself or you can obviously

employ somebody else to help you with it.

But either way, that, that process of just doing that brainstorming and

thinking about where, where it is you're trying to get to with your

business, who you're looking to connect with, how you're going to do

it, and actually having some kind of.

Strategy behind it rather than running around like a headless chicken

when it comes to your marketing and doing things in a reactive way

just because it's what maybe other businesses or other people are doing.

Just because they're doing something it doesn't necessarily mean that's the

right thing for you and your business.

I always think that we can often compare ourselves and our businesses

to others to like competitors or other people we see, and they're just not

the same as you, they might have a, for one, they might have a much bigger

budget than you've got to work with.

If you're a startup or a small business on a business of one, you're not going

to be able to do the same campaign that one of the big, the big boys is doing.

No.

And actually you might find a more nimble way of doing it or a way that works for

your business or, you know what I mean?

So I think you've got to look, yeah, look at your own, look at yourself

rather than looking at others.

Definitely.

And do that in a kind of retrospection.

I completely agree with that.

So could you, could you run through some of the, the

digital marketing platforms and options that are available to us?

Remember.

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Now, back to the show.

So I guess, uh, we've already talked a bit about Instagram, LinkedIn.

I think, um, they are a massive platform.

So if you are a sole practitioner, you don't have to be everywhere.

And I think that's the key thing is you can kind of turn around and go,

actually, I really love linkedIn.

It's where commercial developers are.

That's why I'm to focus on and I think when you look at a platform

like linkedIn, there's so much you can do from the direct messaging

to, you know, using it for search.

That's such a great way to use LinkedIn, people don't use it.

Before you go to a meeting, actually, just Google, you know, look at that

person on linkedIn and see where they've been, see who they know,

you know, like, What are they into?

What did they last post?

Great stuff.

So when you go meet them and you're like, hi, how's your

son or whatever happened here?

Or how was, how was that charity do you're at?

So you can kind of have those conversations.

Um, so then you've also got all the other features like LinkedIn lives,

linkedIn, live audio, LinkedIn video, got newsletters on there, which is, which

relatively new, really, really impactful.

Um, you can grow a family.

But a good following on there very, very quickly.

So there's so many different, you could literally just go, we're going

to go in deep, we're going to go in on LinkedIn and just, that's your

focus of your efforts if you want.

Obviously like Instagram works really well for architects.

Um, cause it's very visual again.

There's so many different elements of Instagram.

There's also things like Pinterest as well as another area in terms of socials

that would work well.

I'm not a fan of X.

I have to admit, I gave up when Mr.

Musk came along.

I'm not Threads, I'm on, but I don't completely understand.

Are you on it?

I'm not, no.

I've, I've heard of it, I'm aware of it, but I, I haven't, haven't delved into it.

As a marketer, I kind of delve into all platforms I

think I should, um, but, Yeah.

this one.

I haven't completely got my head around, so we'll see, but it's,

it's good just to try new things, which is what I enjoy doing.

So social is definitely there.

There's a lot.

Um, there's also things like search engine, SEO search engines.

So that's very much about getting your website found on Google.

Basically.

That's what search engine optimization all about.

so that's everything from what you post on your website, how you tag stuff.

The topics you talk about and all of that kind of stuff.

I'm posting regular content.

That's the kind of basics of SEO.

So that's very much about telling Google what your content is

and what your website's about.

That's how it works.

I think that's, yeah, that's quite a simple way of talking about it.

And you've obviously, you've got your own website as well, which you can have your

kind of main about page, homepage service pages, but I think the area that I don't

think we explore enough as an industry is things like landing pages and doing

dedicated campaigns on particular things.

So it might be that, you know, you run an ad and you run.

it on, I guess, community housing something, and have a

page that's dedicated just to that topic for those people.

And then you can track that and use that as a dedicated landing page, so you can

see how your spend goes, for example.

So a landing page, just in case people aren't familiar with

that term, is that, that's basically just like a single webpage that's

just dedicated to one specific thing?

yeah, it's basically you would, you would build a standalone

web page on your website, which would be on that particular topic.

So the idea is, is, that You would run an ad or a campaign that would land that page

only and then you can track the traffic it Um, it's it's a way of just like and

then there'll be some kind of conversion or something like do a download or sign

up here Or buy this So it's just a way of I guess So being more direct with

your sales, that's what it is, isn't it?

So you can have that as a kind of sales mechanism or book a call or

something like that, but it could just be something that you run a campaign

for a limited time and you send traffic there so you can measure it as it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

Cool.

So we covered, we covered all the main social media platforms you mentioned.

There's our website, that's another thing that we've got another opportunity

for us, um, trying to think if there's anything else that we haven't

Email, email is the other one.

I think email definitely, which that think that many practices do as much.

I mean, I guess if people do anything, they do the, the more traditional,

you know, the email newsletter style emails, which I mean, Sometimes

they can be quite hard to do and that might put you off doing them

because there's too much of a faff.

So, I mean, it's interesting there's been a whole trend towards doing more emails

and more kind of just word only, so, you know, text only based emails as well.

So, that is, you know, that's, that's an option.

What about, what about other opportunities in the digital landscape?

Things like, um, I mean, would, I guess things like video content, YouTube,

things like that, that would fall under

digital marketing.

think yeah, I think that's the thing is like there are

some people who do really well in terms of video and like reels and

stuff on Instagram, aren't there?

YouTube is what is what is the second biggest search engine there is out there.

And there is a home for architecture content on there.

and I think, if you're a, If you're a residential architect, there's no reason

that you can't talk about the process.

What if you're a homeowner, what to expect when you speak to an architect.

All of that stuff, which we could do in a really fun, engaging way.

And I think, yeah, YouTube is, right for that.

And I think, that's an opportunity.

Podcasts like we're doing, that's another opportunity for architects.

Again, it's about showing who you are, your process and what you're doing.

And I think the other thing, because you and I, we both kind of operate in that.

Um, kind of more in that, you know, on the consultancy side and we

work with coaches and things like that and they always do webinars.

We don't do them that much and I think webinars are relatively, again, another

cheap way to market yourself, but there's no reason, again, that you can't do

webinars that, target homeowners and talk you through the planning process.

There's a new labor government.

What will planning mean for that?

All of that.

What do you need to know if you want to extend your house?

And I think there's lots of those opportunities now and with tools like

we're using to record their stream yard, you can get a really good, you know,

just need a decent camera, some lighting, which I haven't got at the moment.

But like if you, that's why I'm so great.

Um, but like, if you use that, you can, you know, you can get a really

good, high quality, good product, which would compete with large firms.

I think.

That's the thing digital means it's such an enabler because small companies can

compete with large ones and still have a really good high quality product.

And I think that to me is like, don't limit yourself you're small.

I think that's the thing.

Oh, such a great point.

I think that the other thing that's an advantage for the

smaller businesses is that if you can, if you can show up online.

authentically, consistently as well, ideally, but particularly

in the architecture industry, not a lot of people do that.

So even if you are, showing up and showing your face now and then, or if you're

doing the occasional video, if you're brave enough to do that, then you're

already streets ahead of like 95 percent of the rest of the industry, because

the rest of the industry is still just posting case studies and photos of their

portfolio and their finished projects.

And only that with no personality, no authenticity.

So there's a huge opportunity for you to, to be more visible and

to leverage your, your presence.

And we've already mentioned how all these digital things can integrate with

the in person stuff that you do as well.

So huge opportunity.

if want to get started on that, I think I often say

people, it's the common questions.

You know, the ones that those clients always ask you at the start, what

those things that people are always asking you, how much is going to cost?

What's the process for planning?

Like all of those basics are what, would make great content, especially if you're

looking at like residential market.

Yeah, I totally agree.

There's not enough of that because it's, there's, um, you probably heard of it.

I'm not sure all the listeners have, but there's a great book by Marcus

Sheridan called They Ask, You Answer.

And it's a very simple content marketing strategy that the clues in the name,

it's like you, you create content that answers people's questions and it's the

stuff that they really want to know about.

And you could, you could put together an entire.

Content marketing campaign, uh, just based off what's in that book.

Go

buy it if you haven't got it already listeners.

It's like I've got my bookcase and it's got quite a few books in it.

I don't read them.

I'm a, I'm a total book nerd.

So I love

Are you really?

I'm an audio nerd.

I, I don't know what it is.

I buy books cause I like buying them.

I mean, I probably don't read them, but I listen to audio all the time.

Hey, whatever works is fine.

I, was there any other.

tactics that you wanted to share.

We've talked about quite a few ideas already, but was there anything

else, any other tactics you wanted to mention that are worth considering?

I

um, I think I think, I probably, I've probably shared most of the stuff.

I do think that there is.

I think it's a lot of what I say is it's, um, the medium you choose is probably

the ones that work best for in a way.

So if you're really into speaking, then the podcast way might be the way for you.

If you're really into writing, then creating guides or, or, or some kind

of booklet that you then promote to clients in the industry, then

that could be a better way for you.

So I think it's a lot of my kind of thing is about.

Finding what works for you and your audience then doing that because that

will just make you a lot more consistent.

But in terms of examples, the things like creating guides, having webinars

that target clients on certain topics.

I think that's the way forward.

And I'm really into campaign based stuff.

You've got an asset that you've created and then how, or how's it,

how many different ways can you repurpose it and share about it

and talk about it and finding that?

Because.

I think you always kind of think that you're, you know, people are only

seeing your stuff, but they're not.

We're all bombarded with messages every day.

So it's much more about how do I kind of get the word out there?

And it's generally, you have to talk about it quite a more

than you would actually think.

Yeah, that's it.

I mean, not everyone, not every one of your followers or your audience is seeing

what you're posting or putting out there.

No.

yeah, you've got it.

you've got to do it a lot more, a lot more than perhaps feels

comfortable to, to most of us.

yeah, definitely.

And get used to it.

Get used to it!

Yeah.

yeah, it gets easier, doesn't it?

What would be your, your top recommendation for us to get

more out of digital marketing?

Read up on something and then actually just give it a try.

I think you've got to give it a try.

And just, just, just try.

I mean, a lot of them are low cost, a lot of ways.

So you can kind try the free trial, you know, 14 days.

And you can really just try out different tools.

So I think that's it.

Get a plan together, give it a go.

Yeah, that's good advice.

It's very much that sort of test and measure approach that don't

just spend months thinking about it.

Actually take action, do it, and then just review how it's gone

and, uh, and then decide whether you're going to do it again.

And if you are, how can you improve it the next time?

Exactly.

I mean, like with my podcast last week out for its birthday, but fourth birthday,

I wanted to get, different people on the show, like giving tips and I tried

out a new piece of software called, uh, completely forgot what it's called.

I remember what it's called, but I'll share it afterwards.

But basically you can leave messages.

And you can literally just use your phone, leave a message and then it gives me the

messages and I can download it podcast.

But it was like a 14 day free trial.

So that was great.

It didn't cost me anything, which I will cancel.

But, um, but, but it is that thing of you can try out new tools and

how they work and get an idea.

So definitely worth doing that.

Oh, that's cool.

Oh, thanks.

That's been, been really helpful.

Was there anything else you wanted to add that we, haven't covered

already about digital marketing?

No, I think I've kind raised it all about brand awareness and about,

boosting your, what you do in person.

And that's it.

That's the missing link.

I think for environment firms, but yeah, I think I've, I've gone through

Awesome.

There's one other thing I wanted to ask you, and it's nothing

to do with digital marketing.

It's a regular question that I like to ask the guests on the show.

I love to travel and discover new places.

So I just wondered if you could share one of your favorite places

and what you love about it.

Do you know what?

I wrote this and then I listened to one of your episodes where Brian, Brian

McCarthy was talking about this place in Italy and I suddenly thought, I've

just written Kew It was very local.

I was like.

Ah, maybe maybe I'm not that ambitious.

But no, I, I put Kew Gardens because I think it's a lovely place.

When I, I know when I was in Matley with my son, that was a place I would

love to go and just wander around.

And yeah, look at plants.

So yeah, it was really nice.

And also they do like great Christmas show, end of year, like like, like

show, which I really do love and I've been going to it for years.

So yeah, I put Kew Gardens rather than somewhere exotic and beautiful.

But next time, ask me that next year.

do that

know what?

It's, it's interesting.

um, a lot of, a lot of the guests do choose somewhere very local.

That there's been some of the guests that are like, Oh, I've my favorite

place is this little coffee shop at our local park, like the end

of the end of the road, you know?

And then I thought, am I thinking, am I being really small

after I listened to Brian this morning?

I was like, oh!

Yeah, they're not, they're not all, not all of them are as

exotic as, as Brian's favorite place.

Um, which i'm sure is also very

but

in the worst I was like, actually that sounds really

nice,

I know, I know Afterwards again, it's talking

about food again, you know, he got talking about cheese and wine.

And I was like, Brian, just stop it.

Like i, I need to go and you know eat cheese and drink wine now.

So, um,

that's it, we're gone.

This is what we're doing after this,

yeah.

Oh, it's been a pleasure to have you on the show.

Thank you so much for organizing this collaboration.

Remember, uh, that there's, well, there's, for anyone listening, there's

another episode, uh, coming up.

partnering episode.

I'm on the built environment marketing show.

It's been released the same time as this episode.

Go and listen to it.

I asked me all sorts of interesting questions about my career journey

so far and about starting out and everything in between.

But I, where is the best place for people to connect with you online?

The best place to find me is actually on LinkedIn.

I'm always there.

Uh, so you spell my name.

A YO Uh, last name is A-B-B-A-S.

Uh, and also I do have a podcast which is on my website.

Um, it's called the Built Environment Marketing Show.

And you can access it there or in Spotify or Apple as well.

Awesome.

So can you remind people of your website address as well, please?

Sure.

Sure.

It is www.abbasmarketing.com, which is

A-B-B-A-S.

Perfect.

I'll make sure that I put a link to your LinkedIn on your website.

I'll make sure that goes in the show notes so that people can

reach out and connect with you.

All right.

Fantastic.

Thanks so much for having me on.

You're welcome.

Thanks.

Next time I'll be chatting with Tom Lewis about the closure of TDO

and the launch of his new practice.

New works.

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