Finding and Vetting Reliable Building Contractors with Linden Dover | 001

What do you do when your go-to building

contractors are booked up solid?

And you need to find and vet a new building contractor for one of

your residential design projects.

Today, I'm joined by Linden Dover and that is exactly what we're going to help

you with in this episode of Architecture Business Club, the weekly podcast for

solo and small firm architecture practice owners, just like you who want to build

a profitable future proof architecture business that fits around their life.

I'm the host Jon Clayton.

And if you want to get notified, when I release a new episode and get access to

free resources and exclusive offers, then go to mrjonclayton.co.uk/abc and sign

up for my free weekly email newsletter.

Now let's discuss how to find and vet building contractors.

Linden Dover is an entrepreneur and seasoned property development

professional with a deep rooted passion for design, craftsmanship and innovation.

He's the co founder and COO of Weaver, an online platform for residential

design architects and architectural design professionals to handle

projects budgeting and tendering fast, and to connect contractors to home

renovation projects across the UK.

Linden is committed to elevating the construction and renovation industry.

He's cultivated a thriving network of trusted construction professionals

and helped to create a superb online platform that is backed by several

influential industry leaders.

You can find out more about Weaver at weaver.build/architects.

Linden, welcome Architecture Business Club.

Thanks so much, Jon, for having me and for

that lovely introduction.

You're very welcome.

Um, you've recently relocated to Mallorca.

Uh, how are you

enjoying Island life?

Uh, it's great.

Yeah, lots of outdoors, um, and getting that sort of work life

balance that I've always strived for.

So yeah, really enjoying it.

And, um, I think, you know, I'm still outside every day

in a t shirt at the moment.

Um, so yeah, it's, it's good so far.

I've only been here for three weeks, so, uh, I'm bedding in.

Early days.

It sounds fantastic though.

Um, I mean, it makes you feel any better than you already do.

It's been pouring with rain in Norfolk today.

And, uh, I got absolutely soaked this morning, uh, on the dog walk.

So, um, I'd much

rather be in Mallorca.

Yeah, fair enough.

I'm sure I'll be back soon enough to meet, sort of, uh, more people from

the network that I've obviously been cultivating, but, uh, but yeah, and

family, but at the moment I'm, uh, I'm here till, till Christmas, so it's, uh,

it's, I'm enjoying the nice weather.

Yeah, for sure.

Oh, not jealous at all.

Um, so we're going to talk about how to find and vet building contractors

for residential design projects.

Um, You had a very bad experience in 2016 with a Rogue Contractor.

Um, could you tell the story of what happened and how that

led to the founding of Weaver?

Yeah, sure.

I mean, to go back a bit, my background was in, after university, I was doing

project management, uh, construction project management and site management,

working my way through sort of small house extensions, lofts, site extensions, etc.

Then went to work for a large main contractor in, in the middle

of London, working on sort of quite large, um, developments.

Uh, taking embassies into eight luxury flats, that sort of thing.

Um, so millions of pounds worth of, of extensions and refurbs.

Um, and then with that knowledge, I was able to go off and, and, um, help

a small family fund, uh, try and, uh, make sure that their money was, uh,

working as hard as it could and, uh, have a go at becoming a development

manager and working, uh, in partnership in a property development company.

Um, and that was, um, small info plots, you know, up to sort of.

Five flats at one time, um, and we did about six of them

over three or four years.

So it was interesting, varied, um, and you know, we were under pressure though,

to make a return as every developer is.

And, um, there was one in particular, one development where we basically bought it.

To for too much.

Um, we were always chasing our tail.

We probably should have just sold it with planning and being right.

That's a loss and move on to the next.

But we were eager to get ourselves dig ourselves out

of the hole, which is mistake.

Number one, trying to find a way to make a bad deal.

Good.

Um, but we went with a contractor and um, We really didn't.

They were experienced on paper in terms of their overall experience,

but the individual company and that was one of the areas was was not.

It was young.

Um, so we took references for the individual, not for

the company they were under.

Um, so from there things went from bad to worse.

Um, and, um, I did a lot of the checks that I normally do.

Um, but the company just wasn't, um, mature enough.

Uh, and, uh, they sadly, um, were, uh, someone that, that folded on us and

I had to end up being the contracts manager and scrabbling it to the finish

myself with the trades underneath.

So it was like going backwards for me being a site manager again,

uh, with added pressure of trying to bring it in on budget, which.

Sadly, we didn't.

So that whole experience of, uh, quite a dark time for me sort of professionally

and personally because I didn't, um, vet and be stringent enough in my outlook

when I was, when I was trying to negotiate with a contractor, trying to get them on

to a project that was difficult anyway.

Um, so yeah, I didn't help myself there at all, but from that experience,

from the ashes of that experience, I realized there must be a better way to

find a contractor, not just through.

Um, your own sort of black book or through recommendation through, um,

uh, other professionals, but there must be an online place to go and find

contractors where they have a presence.

Um, and there wasn't one that really suited everything that I needed and

I teamed up with my business partner, Greg Keane, who was also going

through something frustrating where he couldn't find the right caliber

contractors for his, um, architecture interiors practice he was running.

So, yeah, from, from.

R2 frustrations, um, Weaver was born and, um, you know, fast forward sort

of six, seven years later, um, we are here with a platform that's answering

a lot of those and giving a lot more rigor to, uh, vetting contractors.

That, um, that experience sounds like it was a bit of a

nightmare, but how fantastic that

something good has come out of it.

Silver lining.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

So, um, You've developed a formula at Weaver for finding the best contractors

to finding good, good contractors.

Could you tell me the first step in that vetting process?

Yeah.

I think not everyone gets in.

Um, uh, I think for every sort of 10 contractors that try and come onto the

platform, uh, you know, nine are rejected.

And, um, uh, gently let down, nor rejected.

Um, and I think there's a, there's a three step approach, right?

So, um, we look at vetting them, um, uh, with the information

they give us, uh, to begin with.

So, we ask the contractors to upload past projects.

And that means that we know that they have undertaken projects of a

certain size, of a certain quality.

And we get them to upload, um, images, and also the address, and...

Crucially, references that we can then verify.

Um, so, so with that in mind that they're building their profile, but we're also

getting to understand what they've done.

And, um, that's the first step.

That sounds like a smart move.

What, what happens after you've done that, that first step?

What's the next step in that process that you're using?

Yeah, so, um, once we've got their details and they've

built their profile, we then...

We actually call up every single project that they've put up there as part of their

profile and we verify with a reference.

So the referee gets an email and a questionnaire to fill in about

the contractor and they also get photos saying, you know, is this

the project that they worked on together under this limited company?

So we verify that way and then we call them up and we ask them other

questions around, you know, would you work with the contractor again?

Is this the company that you work with?

We're really digging into sort of, you know, Whether they are a bonafide,

a limited company that they would be enjoy working with on another project.

Um, so crucially that that two step verification, um, and, um, that sort

of bleeds into at the same time.

We're also, um, checking that company risks.

Um, and we do that by going to company's house and making sure that

the company directors, um, and the company actually match and they are

bona fide and they also haven't got any insolvencies over the last five years.

And we're looking at their, the sort of anomalies that we've built up as

a pattern for contractors who have, uh, a poor history of rogue trading.

And that can be, um, anywhere from, Um, you know, setting up companies and similar

names and closing them down again, um, or having multiple insolvencies or having

a large range of different companies that aren't to do with construction.

Um, so we dig into the reasons there as well.

So, yeah, spotting negative signals, I think, within companies house and

making sure that we've questioned and really interrogated those.

That's the second step.

That's already sounding, um, really quite robust

compared to the way that many people would, would go about this.

Um, sounds like there's, there's quite a lot that's going into that process.

So, um, I'm liking the sound of it sounding good, very thorough.

I think a lot of architects do this already.

I think it's getting their clients to do it and I think it's the time it takes to

do it properly, um, when you are trying to get, um, a tender pack together and

you're trying to do all the many things that architects have to do, all the

hats you have to wear, um, all the time.

So this is just another added thing.

You're being pestered by lots of different people, um, as an architect.

And what we're trying to do is.

Be another tool in your, um, in your armory where you can say, right,

Weaver can help reduce the time it takes to find reliable contractors.

And I know I need to do these vetting checks, but I know that we've

have done a lot of them already.

Um, so you're right, it's, um, homeowners might just go off a recommendation,

but I know that good architects are always doing their own due diligence.

So we're just, we're just saving them time.

That's what we're trying to do.

Yeah, I love that, that it's, this is something that, as you

say, there are going to be architectural practices out there that are doing their

own vetting anyway, and maybe have a similar process, but Weaver is serving

as a time saving tool that they can use.

To kind of stick to doing what they're best, what they enjoy doing

most, and to let somebody else do some of the other things in their

business that still need to be done.

Um, and you mentioned there also about when home owners might be

finding their own contractors.

I guess that that's something that, um, that there's some

pitfalls there, isn't there?

Yes, particularly on smaller residential to.

design a renovation or extension projects and maybe assist with

planning and building control.

And then the homeowner might go off and

find their own contractors.

Um,

Yeah, you hear of lots of horror stories, um, and road traders

out there and also homeowners getting themselves into a muddle when they

don't have an architect, um, helping them, you know, holding their hand,

um, through something that is, uh, very emotive and can be, you know, one of

the most expensive things that they're undertaking apart from buying the house.

Um, so there's a lot of decisions to be made.

And one of the key things is getting the right.

Contractor on the project can kill a project.

If you don't, you know, you're, you're, you're getting in, you're,

you're inviting them into your home.

You're almost getting into bed with them for, you know, at least three months.

So you need to make sure you're getting the right, um, uh, credentials

and the right rapport being built.

And it's difficult to do that if you're just going off.

Oh, a friend down the road, they did a good job, so I'm sure they'll do a

good job of mine, or I've got this, you know, I've heard so many times

before, this guy's done my bathroom, he'll be fine doing my extension.

So you've really got to put some, some thought into who you're getting prices

back from, because I think a lot of people just want, want quotes, just give me some

quotes, and then you're like, well, Who's actually going to give you the best quote

that actually, um, will give you a clear indication of how much it's going to

cost, um, not just what you want to hear.

Um, and what you, what maybe you can afford.

So I think, you know, finding a good contractor.

Who's right for the job and that matching processes is is again But a secret

source about what weaver does is it's not just presenting vetted contractors.

It's making sure that they are location Making sure that their

experience and their availability is right for you as the as a client.

Okay.

Yeah, that that makes a lot of sense.

Uh, so, okay.

So we've in this process so far, there's been some due due diligence done in terms

of checking credentials, checking on company's house, you've done some checking

with The, uh, past clients so that you've, you've asked for some information to

be uploaded about the projects that the contractors have worked on, collated some

contact details, reached out and spoken to some of their previous customers.

Um, what else happens as part of, of this process of vetting?

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Now, back to the show.

Yeah, so I think that the third element is the continual

assessment and it's we want to make sure that we've got contractors that

are continually Um, going to be up to scratch, up to mustard, uh, to work

on these architect led projects that we're attracting onto our marketplace.

And so, how do we go about that?

Well, we talk to the architects that are using our network and

their clients and get feedback.

Um, how did these contracts perform in terms of the tender, but also in terms

of onsite and how are they performing?

You know, you can be in touch with us and we're here.

Um, and we're wanting to foster relationships with both good

contractors, quality contracts.

We're celebrating quality contractors, but also attracting more architect

led projects all the time.

So we have a.

an interest in making sure that these contractors are continually assessed.

And also I go as far as saying, and I think, you know, when you

speak to Weaver vetted contractors, they say the same, they're seeing

us as a pipeline of business.

And so an architect might be able to give them maybe one project a year, but

we're trying to give them three or four.

So they see us as a, as quite a large part of their business plan.

And so, you know, When hopefully, um, an architect comes to us and says, how are

they, how are they doing, uh, we can say, well, you know, can we make sure that they

know they're being continuously assessed and hopefully they might pull up their

socks more because it's a Weaver project.

That's the idea, is to make sure that we've got really engaged

quality contractors, um, offering a, uh, a service, uh, that architects

and their clients are looking for.

I love that, that there's this continual assessment

because I mean, contractor quality and reliability can change over time.

So it's good to hear that the process that you have in place, it's not kind

of like a once and done that you are kind of continually assessing those

contractors and they're incentivized as well on the platform with, you know,

that opportunity for kind of repeat business through the platform as well.

So, um, I could see how that could, could

work really effectively.

Yeah, and what I would say for the, you know, thinking

about the contractor's point of view is that we're vetting both ways.

Well, you know, we want them to make sure that they are being

efficient with their time.

They work extremely hard and I'm not sure that clients specifically realize

how much money and energy and time goes into producing quotes for their projects.

I think sometimes they can just...

Feel like these numbers get magicked out of the air, but actually there's

a, there's a whole process around, you know, doing, um, takeoffs properly of, of

different materials and, and, um, making sure that, that they've actually come

up with a price that is bespoke to your project and, um, What we're trying to do

is saying, look, we vetted these projects in terms of how serious the client is.

You know, we've got a relationship with the architect.

They're looking for a specific, uh, type of builder in this area, who, who

can start on site within these months.

And so they know that, that, that we've have, have done that, um,

uh, uh, vetting of the project.

So they're happy to.

invest their time into, uh, engaging with projects that come through.

So I think there is that two, two, two way street in terms of we're

not just vetting the contractors and making sure they're good.

We're also making sure we're introducing them to a serious pipeline of projects.

I love that.

So by having that kind of two way process in place, you're essentially

improving the chances of making a good match between the project and the

contractor, making sure we've got a happy contractor on the project and also

a happy client at the end of the job.

That's the aim of the game.

Yeah, absolutely.

Jon.

Awesome.

Um, okay.

That's, that's been really helpful.

Give me a really good overview.

Um.

To sum things up, what steps would you recommend, um, to, to any of us

to find a better building contractor?

Could you summarize what you've described in that vetting process?

Uh, so that anybody could apply that if they're looking to, to find their

own building contractor.

Yeah, I think make sure you do your due diligence, don't just,

um, go off looks or, um, or the last project that you've seen them do, um,

really interrogate and bonus point for actually going and seeing a site, um,

that is something that they've completed.

Ideally that is the same sort of size and budget and finish that you're

looking for Uh, and I would always try and go and have a look at something.

It's finished It's hard because you know people are living in these homes

So it's quite hard to sometimes knock on people's doors Um, if the contractor

doesn't know whether they're actually going to get the business But at least

try and go to a site that is in progress.

You can tell a lot by someone's um, tidiness, orderliness, how they engage

their, uh, their site, um, whether they've got a good health and safety board or

they, they, they, uh, are got, uh, they treat their materials in good condition

and they're not spread out everywhere.

Um, and, um, you know, you can tell a lot by a contractor when you meet them on site

and how they're conducting themselves.

Um, so, so that's, you know, as well as references.

try and go and see a project that's ongoing.

Um, and I would also, you know, when you're going through your, your to

do list, I'd make sure that they are appropriate in terms of, you know,

have they got the right insurances?

Um, have they got the right type of references for your, for your projects?

You know, what are you doing?

Are you doing a traditional extension?

Are you doing a mixed use development?

Are you doing a commercial?

You know, make sure you've got the right appropriate contractor for the job.

Um, and, um, And get out there and talk to people who have worked with them before.

And if you're going.

Prior to that if you're trying to look for contractors, obviously we're

a great source, but I would um, you know Sweat your own contacts as well.

I would Walk the area if you're new to the area, especially if you're a new

practice I'm sure people do this anyway, but you know when you're out and about

make an effort to see what hoardings are in the area Obviously you can go online

and look at other Google sources, etc, but they're unvetted I would I would

Use other consultants use architects.

They've already always a good place to find contractors So yeah,

if you're looking to source them that those are a few other ways

But yeah, I think what we've been through today is a good summary.

But on top of that it's insurances.

It's your own vetting in person and Making sure you take the time

to decide Between the contractors.

It's not just about the price.

Look at, uh, when you're comparing, uh, contractors, uh, quotes that you get back,

think about how you can assess them on communication, uh, on timeliness, budget

keeping, um, how they, how they resolve disputes, um, whether they understand

different types of, uh, contracts, because You might want to enter into

a, uh, a simpler or more complex, um, contract depending on the size and

complexity of the project, um, and their experience with working as a design team,

depending on which, um, construction, uh, contract you're going, going with.

So yeah, they're quite quite a few tips.

Hopefully.

Brilliant.

That's, that's fantastic.

Thanks for that, Linden.

Um, is there anything else that you wanted to say that we haven't already

covered?

Yeah, I think we touched on it briefly.

I think, um, you know, contractors can change over time.

So, um, um, you know, we're, we're trying to grow with contractors and trying to

offer them opportunities to go from, uh, you know, a small outfit to hopefully

something that's a very well oiled outfit that they can go on to larger projects.

Um, so, yeah.

I think if you're, you're just a slice in time, uh, if you're just, if you're

employing them once as a homeowner, um, so make sure that you do your assessing

properly, looking at company's house, looking at, um, who they are today.

Um, But I think, I think trying to educate yourself about how, how much time and

energy they put into to your specific quote and giving them the time of day.

I think I see a lot of people, contractors can get a lot of, um, stick for all

being bunched into, um, you know, the rogue trader, they're all out to get you.

It was actually, there's a lot of passionate individuals out there who.

really enjoy what they do and they're coordinating a lot of different moving

parts for you and so I think it's taking the time out of your day to be

respectful and Respond to their, um, a just be nice and respond to their,

uh, efforts and, and give them reasons maybe why you're enjoying their service

or, or why you haven't gone with them.

I think that's really key.

I think a lot of the time they can sort of not hear anything for weeks because

people are busy, you know, homeowners generally are working hard to be able to

afford the extensions they want to do.

So I think, you know, um, feedback, I think is something that I

would always try and, um, get.

Busy architects and busy clients to try and offer as part of the whole.

quite fraught tender process, you know, uh, getting quotes back is quite, it's

quite a sort of, uh, crescendo in a way, but it's, um, of, of all the hard work,

getting the planning permission, getting the, uh, technical drawings together.

Um, so it's worth, worth taking your time over this.

Um, otherwise, you know, you can really, uh, get, uh, down the line.

If you just go with the lowest quote, um, you can get yourself into a mix up

because you haven't thoroughly thought about who's the best fit for my project.

That's a really great point.

Um, I mean, on that point there of taking the lowest quote, the amount of times

that I've heard back from, um, previous design clients where I've maybe helped

them with a partial service in the past with a home renovation design and, um,

you know, later on, we talked about how the builders gone when I've, I've not

necessarily been appointed for that.

Uh, part of the projects and they've gone for the lowest quote.

And then it turns out that by the time the job is actually finished,

that their actual final spend is, is much higher because essentially

there's been so many things that have been missed from that original quote.

Um, that actually they're often like, Oh, we got free quotes and

we went for the lowest one, but the final cost was, you know, more

than the highest one.

Yeah, unfortunately that can be a lot of the time I hear from

quality contractors, they actually price themselves out of winning projects

because they're being very thorough and diligent with their, uh, quotes saying,

you know, you haven't actually, uh, on your schedule of works or your list of

things you want to get done, essentially, um, you, you haven't included for,

Uh, the drainage connections or, uh, the overheads, uh, around this area

or, you know, scaffolding needs to be up for how many weeks, et cetera.

So they really think about how you can practically undertake the project.

Not, Oh, here's my next cash flow.

Uh, you know, here's how I can get from, um, Rob Peter to pay Paul.

Um, so yeah, you need to watch out for that.

And I think maybe the last thing is we've been talking a lot about matching.

I think.

Dig into the experience and we're able to do that a lot because we get a lot

of information about the project on the platform, you know, the architect has

the option to add special requirements.

So, you know, do they have sustainable credentials?

You know, are they looking for a certain sort of structural class or

other elements that only a certain few contractors might know how to undertake?

So we can dig into the specifics about what contractors we're looking for, but

I think as a homeowner, if you are on your own, or if you've only bought part

package with an architect, or if you know they're only taking it to stage

four, then um, you know, be wary of that.

You know, make sure you've done your due diligence on the contract

to have they, um, had a nominated contractor for a rubber flooring or a

polished concrete or whatever before.

And if it's the first time, then.

Be aware of that and um, you know, you might get someone cheaper if

they haven't done it before, but you might get a lot more mistakes.

That's a really good point.

Thanks for that, Linden.

I think, um,

I think we've covered a heck of a lot there.

Um, that's been really, really useful.

So, um, thanks so much for sharing, um, your knowledge and

experience.

I really appreciate it.

Um, so where can people go online to, to

find out more about you?

Yeah, sure.

Um, you can go on LinkedIn and quite active on LinkedIn,

um, posting quite a bit there.

Um, and also you can email me at linden@weaver.build.

Um, or yeah, those are two the, the best places to get hold of me really.

Um, or if in you're in Palma, come and say hi

I'd love to come to Palma and say, hi, that that's,

um, all the excuse I need.

Thanks for that.

Um, so it was just one, one of the question I wanted to ask, actually, I, I

love travel and discovering new places.

And I wondered if you could just tell me one of your favorite

places and what you love about it.

Absolutely anywhere.

This could be

near

or far just, um,

It's actually quite near, um.

So, my wife and I have been holidaying in Mallorca for quite a few years,

um, and other Balearic Islands.

And, just near here, actually, um, there's a place called Deia, which

is, uh, sort of 30 minutes from Palma.

And, if you go past Deia, you can only trek there or take a boat.

Now, My wife and I have never been on the boat here, but we've walked

in a couple of times to, um, a restaurant, um, called Sa Faradada.

I'm going to pronounce that really badly.

But it's this beautiful out, out of the way restaurant that you can only trek

into or, and you go past a quarry that They quarried all the stone for lots

of, um, interesting old buildings in Palma, I think, including the cathedral.

And it's just really scenic and quite a trek, and when you get to

the restaurant you're quite relieved.

But it's this beautiful, uh, bay, and they do the most amazing paella, and, um,

you overlook the sea, and there's just, there's only a few other diners there,

and there's lots of little areas you can go swimming and snorkeling afterwards.

So that's a pretty magical place, um, and it's nice that

it's only half an hour away.

That sounds amazing.

Um, my family and I, we've had a number of holidays over in Majorca and that is

somewhere that we haven't been before.

So I'll have to

add that to my bucket list for our next

family holiday in Majorca.

Yeah, absolutely.

Awesome.

Thanks again, Linden.

It's been

fantastic to talk to you today.

Not at all.

Yeah.

Likewise.

Look forward to speaking more, Jon.

Next time I'll be chatting with Janine Coombs, a service positioning

expert about a different approach to pricing and positioning your services.

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