How To Thrive As A Freelancer (or Sole Practitioner) with Ange Lyons: Part 2 | 064

What's your biggest challenge as a freelancer or sole practitioner?

Dealing with tricky clients.

Avoiding scope creep on projects, or maybe it's simply combating the loneliness

and isolation of working from home.

Being your own boss is not always easy.

Thankfully, we've got some practical tips and a few stories that should help you.

Uh, in part two of my conversation on freelancing with

Angela lions on this episode.

Of architecture business club.

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Now let's continue our conversation about freelancing.

Well that's totally different, so that's A redesign, that's total redesign.

Oh, but that's a revision.

Like, where does it say in the contract that, you know, you said we could

have as many changes as we want.

And so, and that's where it can get a bit sticky, I

Hmm,

Have you had that sort of experience, Angie, in graphic design

and branding?

definitely, Um, I've had it recently with a website actually.

Um, and I'd spoken to the client from the beginning saying,

Are you sure you want this?

Because it wasn't looking like how we spoke when we actually

first started the project.

And she was like, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

And then a few months down the line, it changed and it was a redesign.

Hmm.

And it's just interesting because it is uncomfortable but it is uncomfortable and

I'm not we're all human um I wish I could be more ruthless in some things but I

did it and I've included it in the price I've had to reflect that because but it's

horrible yeah you see it gave you the ick talking about money it does but at the

end of the day I won't go into Sainsbury's and say I'm just gonna take that pineapple

um I'll pay you When I can, or, you know, you want your money, don't you?

They want their money.

So, um, it's the same with business and small, you know, being a

freelancer, you've got to, you've got to, you've got to list out

what you're going to give them.

And even if it isn't, when you say revisions, list out

what that revision entails.

This is like, this is what, this will be, Um, I don't know what the word

would be, say a tweak or a change to what we've decided on the first round.

A redesign is something completely different.

Um, and if you're not happy with that, maybe we need to have another sit

down and discuss, um, payment options.

Cause I know also with some clients, they might not be

able to have it all in one go.

Maybe discuss payment options.

It's still going to happen.

I'll still do it for you, but let's break it down into smaller payment plans.

You know,

so, um, so give them some options.

So there's always options, but if they still say, well, I'm not doing

it, I don't want that anymore.

If you're going to break the contract, you break the contract, but make sure

you get paid for what you've done.

And if you can get paid up front, get the rest of it,

because they signed the contract.

Yeah, it's so tricky.

I

It's hard

had my fingers burnt with a client and They basically they said

they already had some really specific ideas that they wanted for the renovation

and extension of their home They they wouldn't share them Because this was

really strange because normally it's quite a collaborative process with my clients.

So and I, I mean, I don't really do much kind of architectural design work these

days, but when I used to it's, it's been very much like client centric approach

where we work together, but they were like, well, we want to see your ideas.

We don't want, so they were like, we want you to basically, you know, this is kind

of, The rooms and spaces were after, but we want to see your ideas and inspiration.

That's what we're paying for.

And a normal circumstances, it should have rung alarm bells.

We did ring alarm bells, but the way that the, the opportunity to

come about was through a, another company that I was hoping to foster.

A long term working relationship with so I basically was like well, okay I'm feeling

that this might be a bit of a prickly client, but i'll i'll work with it and

we'll see where it goes Anyway, because there might be some other work that comes

off the back of it And I really should have listened to my guts because they were

a nightmare to work with I put my heart and soul into a design that I basically

Met all of the points on their brief and they took one look at it and were like No

we don't like it, that's not what we want.

So we want you to just read all of the work you've done throw it in

the bin and can you just now, here's our sketches that we wouldn't show

you before we now want you to now produce all of the 3D model based on

these sketches that we already had.

Can you just do that?

And because it wasn't, because I hadn't made it crystal clear in the

onboarding with that client to say to them, actually, the way I normally

work is, it's a collaboration.

And you do realize that if you just leave me to go down this, come up

with this design completely on my own, that if you don't like it, it will

be fully chargeable for anything else because I didn't have that awkward

conversation with them at the beginning.

I was in an awkward position because they were like You said we'd get revisions.

This is a revision.

Well, you know, we, we, we just want you to, make these changes.

And so I, I, in the end, I got really stressed about it.

And then I decided that to just take a hit on it.

And I did the same.

I was like, and then after that, I was like, right.

But

going to make sure that that's, you know, robust now moving

forward.

I think both of us, in both those cases, we learnt from

it and we've put things in place to learn from that experience.

And again, it's tricky being by yourself and not having, you know,

we've got so many hats in our business, just having that one.

It's like, we're not legal people either.

So now we've learned how to deal with a legal contract to say, this is

the, this is the project and this is what's going to be in the projects.

And if you do X, Y, Z, you're going to get charged that.

So, but again, we both learnt from that.

it's not mattered how clear I've thought.

Something was like a contract or an agreement like you can always improve

upon it and make it even clearer, you know Which actually that sort of nicely

segues on to a follow up question.

I was going to ask around Do you have any thoughts on sort of best

practices around things like handling?

Invoicing and contracts so that we can avoid some of these pitfalls

that we've just been talking about.

I would say invest if you can.

Invest in contracts that you can either pay for or get someone, a

legal person to have a look over it.

And there are, um, solicitors that just deal with freelancers

and smaller businesses that will look at their contracts.

There are actually also freelancers and independent companies

that just deal with that too.

So I'd definitely say get contracts in place and not just

get it's get them templated.

So have a contract for each.

part of your business that you think you're offering a service to.

So for example, I offer, I've got a contract for brand and website.

I've got one for brand.

I've got one for marketing services.

So in between all of those, and there might be one that's a bit

ad hoc, where I'll just pull bits of the other contracts.

But you put out, the basis is pretty much the same.

I suppose the foundation is pretty much the same.

But then you just actually build up what you're actually

going to deliver to that client.

And so.

Again, going back to that website that I got done over with the redesign.

Um, I've put in place where you decide upon this date, and then you pay me the

next part of my invoice on this date, and then we decide again on this part, and

then you pay another part of the invoice.

So that is all spaced out, and we know where we're going from the

beginning, and we break it down.

Um, I do that in a system.

I know a lot of people have CRM systems.

Um, some people don't.

You don't have to have a CRM system.

But that's one thing I did invest in this year.

It was, um, Moxi.

It's a CRM system.

And I get different templates in there.

And also do my timings in there.

I put my onboarding in there.

I have onboarding forms, offboarding forms.

Um, I don't do my invoices in there.

Because I've got it all in another software.

So, yeah.

Um, in FreeAgent and I'll do my invoicing in FreeAgent and then I'll um, but

then they'll kind of, not talk to, I've not got them to talk, you can do it

through Zapier but I've not got them to.

I'm, I'm fine enough to know that that's where my invoices, my invoices are and

this is where my contracts and forms are.

So at the beginning I, Again, I looked online.

I got contracts online and people sell them templates, um, they

could be legal contracts or you can invest in a legal person to go

over your contracts while you can.

the contracts, depending on what it is specifically

that you do within architecture.

So, um, some of the professional institutes have some contracts

that their members can use.

So if they're a member of, um, if they're an architect and they're a

member of the RIBA, that they do have some contracts that people can, can use.

And actually they do do some documents that.

you can, you can purchase from them.

Uh, so even if you're a consultant, you're not an architect, but you

work within architecture, you can still use some of their paperwork.

My, um, the professional organization that I'm in, CIAT, they also

have some templated documents that their members can use.

I'm not sure about some of the other organizations cause we've got, there's

various, like for surveyors, there's the RICS, you've got CIOB, um, there's

I'm sure that each of those institutes probably has some kind of templates

or contracts that people could use as a starting point, but your advice and

suggestion about finding somebody, a freelancer or a solicitor, somebody

to look over it, because as good as those documents are that we can get

from those institutes, they're not always a perfect fit for people.

Your particular business and the packages and services that you offer.

So I'd, um, previously used a combination.

I'd used a contract that I'd got from CIAT, which they call their

conditions of engagement, I think for like domestic clients, which is like

people doing home renovation projects.

But then also I'd used.

A letter contract.

So I'd sort of set out a template, which was a standard letter, which

went into the T's and C's in a bit more detail, which then that kind

of like had developed over time.

Um,

I know this, um, more so around, uh, architects, um, based

podcasts, but there's also, um, IPSE, um, and there's also that's IPSE

and there's also FSB and they're all good, um, um, I suppose organizations

that help with small businesses.

So there's the FSB is the Federation of Small Businesses.

And I know that they also offer, if you pay for their membership, they

also offer legal advice, um, especially when you're writing contracts.

So if there's any problems with your contracts, um, I don't know if I'm

allowed to mention it because, um, I'll just ask, I'll let you know.

If there's any problems with people not paying contracts, um, or invoices, there's

a solicitor's called Thomas Higgins.

They're solicitors, they're proper legit.

Engage with them.

If someone's still not paying you, say for example, after three

months, contact Thomas Higgins, set up an account with them.

They will send out a letter of payment to the company.

And normally, people, when they get this letter, because it looks very official,

um, and it is official, they will pay up.

Because they don't want to be taken to court.

And to engage with Thomas Higgins, it is 25.

Oh, wow.

That's really good.

Yeah.

So, somebody, again, Sophie, I think, Sophie,

yeah, she told me about them.

Um, but pretty much most of my clients have paid.

But, this is only in the jurisdiction of the UK.

Right.

I've had a client that's based in the Channel Islands and

they've not paid me and Thomas Higgins said, oh, we can't help you.

Oh, no.

know it's annoying, but um, um, but yeah, if you're

having any problems not getting paid, I'd say Thomas Higgins legal

wise is a good place to start.

That sounds good.

We also, um, I've got another recommendation for listeners that we

did an episode earlier in the year.

Um, I can't remember which number, but it was, the guest was Rhonda Jackson

and we talked specifically about fee recovery and about how to go about

recovering fees if clients hadn't paid.

So if you are struggling, um, you might want to, go and check out that

podcast episode as well because there's some useful insights in there about

specifically about recovering fees from clients that haven't paid and

actually some preventative measures you can take, to make sure that they pay

in the first place and you don't kind of have to, um, to go down that road.

and something else that can be a challenge for freelancers is the social isolation.

It can feel quite isolating, especially, you know, if you're

working on your own at home.

I wondered if we could just talk about that for a moment and to discuss like,

if you've got any suggestions for how we can, how we can approach that.

Because I've certainly experienced it over the years.

Yeah, I say him.

It's hard because you are working from home.

Unless you engage, I think, in certain communities, you

will still be by yourself.

And that's, you know, that's, I suppose that's a fact.

But if you start engaging with them, as I said before, locally,

that's the best place to start.

You could even like take yourself down to a local co working space.

They're great places for meeting other, most, do you know what they are going

to be small businesses there pretty much most of the time because if they're in

a full time office they're going to be in their full time office with their

colleagues, they're not really going to be in a co working space but, well they

might be, but the majority of people in there are people of us that are

freelancers, have their own business, I'd say take yourself off to one of those.

If you can't, if there's nothing near you and you don't feel quite ready

for that, there's online communities.

I'm part of the Be In Freelance community.

We often have co working sessions on Fridays together.

And then there might be an in person meetup.

There's also, I know there's a few portals online where you can, um, It's

weird because when you, I don't know if people know about this, but when you

co work online, you're on a Zoom call in a room with maybe 20 other, could

be 5, could be 20 other freelancers, say what you want to achieve during the

session, um, and then start working.

And, um, I know when I told this, I told this to Emma Jones actually,

she's part of Enterprise Nation.

Actually, that's another really great organisation for freelancers to check out.

They've got lots of lunch and learns on there.

Um, so it's Enterprise Nation.

So, um, I met Emma Jones, I was telling her about it this year and

she was like, co working online?

I don't quite understand.

I was like, yeah, we're just literally on a Zoom call and we're working and

then we check in with each other about 45 minutes in and then we'll have a chat

and then go back and work and then, you know, Do another session 45 minutes and

then be off on our days, but you've made a connection there with people online

Another one that another Organization I work with is freelancer magazine

and we do online co worker sessions.

I'm a host of one of them we always like make people feel

welcome and Everyone's just on a, you know, just on the same level.

Everyone's just like working by themselves.

No one's got no, you know, no frontal ears and graces.

And do you know what the best thing out of that is like collaboration.

Someone might find out that somebody else is down the road for them and

they won't meet up for a coffee.

It's so, it does happen.

Somebody might say, oh, I need a copywriter.

Oh, I know that copywriter's in that group.

Let me pass on these details.

So it's just, it's, you know, Again, that networking of just turning up and

I've had freelancers come after the session and said, Oh my gosh, I didn't

realise it was going to be like that.

Thank you so much.

And it's just, I know that's the one thing about meeting people

is that some people just feel quite scared or nervous about it.

Um, I try to welcome everybody.

Well, I do try to welcome them.

I do welcome everybody.

Um, But, pretty much everyone's in the same boat, so don't worry about it,

don't, try not to overthink it too much.

Just come and say hi, and if that's all you say, that's good.

If you just want to say hi, just say hi to somebody, um, but you're

starting, and then you'll build on that.

Um, what else around, loneliness, do you know what I offer, um, um,

sometimes I offer Zoom cuppers.

Um, and that's free, just if someone wants to come and say hello to me.

I've got it on um, um, on my, on my Moxie site.

I've built that in.

So people can book in um, 15 minutes just to have a Zoom cuppa, um.

Oh, that's nice.

It's just sometimes you just, if you're by yourself, you just

might wanna chat, 15 minutes, just chat.

And then go about your day.

Well, I think otherwise you can end up sort of stuck in your own head.

And, um, I think that's the thing, isn't it?

That sometimes just having the opportunity to just have a quick chat with somebody

and sort of get out of your own head and maybe bounce a couple of ideas

around and it can be really, really

helpful.

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Now, back to the show.

And, um, I know there's, um, other groups that are, oh gosh, which one?

Um, Bonnie, she does.

Um, she, she doesn't really advertise it as much, but it's there if you want it.

There's, she's a copywriter and she set up, um, zoom groups for,

um, I think it's called bombs.

Bonnie Bonds.

Pos , hard to say.

Bugs Pubs.

And they're, um, set by the Pomodoro timer.

So we do actually work on a timer and do work together.

And then again, you meet people in those groups, so you don't

even need to leave your home or your office or wherever you are.

You can meet them, um, online.

That's a good thing actually that, um, I mean particularly the online

co working thing that we might be a lot of listeners thinking like what like

you just You just meet on zoom and then you go off and do your own work and

like, it's a bit strange, you know, you might not kind of get the head around

it, but it does really work really well.

As you say, there is the opportunity to connect with people, but also it's, um, if

you struggle with Getting round to doing things or maybe if there's a task that you

want to work on your business for an hour or so and you've been procrastinating and

getting interrupted when that's scheduled on your calendar and it's like I'm going

to that co working session and I'm going to work on that thing that I've not been

getting around to doing it's a great way to help keep you accountable and to

get things done and even that the simple thing of just turning your camera on and

being part of a zoom room and just saying.

I'm going to work on this thing.

See you in an hour and a half.

uh, it can really help get things done.

Yeah.

Definitely.

Definitely.

Um, and as you said, it's the accountability.

And when I do my sessions, I always say to people, put it in the chat if you

want me to check in on you, because I don't want to put anyone on the spot.

But I always say, so if you want accountability.

Put it in the chat.

And I always say to them, and don't go on LinkedIn, or Instagram

and start looking at cute cats.

Um, we're here to work

Do, do go on LinkedIn to market your business

effectively, but not right now.

but not right now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Do it later.

Do it later.

If or if that's, or if that's what you wanna use the session for.

'cause I know some people have used the session to update their websites.

They do their own Mark.

Actually, that is a really good point.

It's a lot of people, a lot of freelancers come to that

session and this is their time.

They've blocked out to actually do their marketing on their business.

So it's either updating their website, writing that, starting

that blog they want to write.

I know tomorrow I'm going to join one because I've got my newsletter to write.

So I'm going to sit down in that session and write my newsletter.

Um, and if it is going on LinkedIn, I'm not going to, um, go in and go in and,

you know, spend whatever you need to do.

Whatever your time limit is on LinkedIn and do your marketing on there.

Connect with some people, comment on some posts.

That's a great idea.

We touched upon the fact that freelancers are often juggling lots of different

things and they may be trying to kind of wear many different hats.

They might be juggling client projects and the admin side of their business.

Have you got any thoughts on how freelancers can try and manage their

time more effectively to try and Stay on top of those creative tasks

that they might be working on as well as those necessary business

tasks that might not light their fire

Oh gosh, it's so hard.

It's so hard.

It's really hard because I, I think I've watched a meme of like

somebody putting on a different hat and it was like, marketing,

HR, um, actually doing the work.

You know, finance operator.

Um, what I do, um, I don't know if you can see it, but I've got various things.

I have a wall planner.

I My time is there, but I know what's coming in the day.

I have a pad that I mark things out on, and I always have a post

it note that stays the same.

It says, do one thing today, and then I write down what that

one thing is going to be today.

If I've got to do that one thing, because we have loads of lists,

but my one thing that I have to do today, I make that in bold.

I'm like, do that one thing.

But time wise, if I know that I'm Got a big project or I need to focus.

I use Pomodoro timers quite a lot.

Um, I also listen to podcasts while I'm working and I know that podcast

might last, I don't know, half an hour.

Then I'll get up, go for a walk, go for a cup of tea, come

back and then I'll work again.

Um, I'll time some music, anything and everything, a little bit of time,

around time, um, I have a, oh my gosh, you think I must be like crazy, I've

got lots of bits of paper on, I have this too, I have a time block where I

put things in an hour, what I've got to do for that day, um, that really

helps, because that really, so I have a weekly planning sheet and it goes

from 6 o'clock to 11 o'clock at night.

I don't, obviously don't do it that early and that late, not often anyway.

Um, and then I will block out what is happening in that hour.

And then it actually breaks down your time of what you've actually done.

Um, but that's a, that's more of a, uh, I suppose a to do list.

visual for me to try and get those things done in that hour,

um, or in that time space.

I do use the CRM system that I've got, Moxi.

It's got a timer on it so every time I click the project that I'm

working on, the timer will start.

Not that I charge a client per hour, um, it's more so to know how

long I've spent on that project.

Useful for your benefit.

You can look back and

And then you can Exactly.

And then you can even build that into your new contracts or your new, um, pricing

because then you think, Oh gosh, actually that did take me a bit longer than, than

I expected or it was a little bit less.

Um, so it works both ways.

Um, Oh gosh, I try and not to look at my phone.

I really try hard, but it's very hard.

Um, I know people use an app called forest, um, and that actually blocks

out your phone from any messages and I've turned off all notifications

on social media on my phone.

Oh yeah, that's a good idea or you could use the Aeroplane mode you

just press that button as if you're going on a flight and it just turns off the

turns off.

Perfect.

Yeah.

yeah, I've I think I've got two options The notifications

turned off on mine as well.

Although I think that was kind of accidental But actually i've quite enjoyed

left it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah I think I changed some settings somehow and it's just

ended up turning them off and uh, I've left it that way and I quite like it.

So

yeah, I did that on holiday about, I think about three years ago.

I turned off all my own social media notifications.

I've not turned it back on.

Yeah

So I have to go into the app to have a look at it.

Yeah, well, you can, you can be a bit more, you can make a conscious

decision if and when you choose to do that, rather than it sort of controlling

you and pinging up and distracting you.

Cause those distractions can really derail your day for sure.

And this has been lovely.

I've really enjoyed having the opportunity to chat with you about

this because I think it's such an important topic and there's so many, um,

particularly in architecture, there's so many that are working on their own.

So, to be able to put This content together for them to help them

with their freelancing journey, I think it's really valuable.

What would be the, the main thing that you'd like everyone to take

away from the conversation today?

My main thing, I'd say you are not alone.

I'd say you're never alone.

If you don't want to be alone, you can always find someone out there.

And I'm not saying go and join a thousand communities or go

and join like big communities.

Even if it's one freelancer buddy, a pal that you, that you feel comfortable

with, don't work in isolation.

I know we've got to do the work.

We have our client work to do, but maybe Take, I don't know, a Zoom break or go for

a coffee with them somewhere if you can.

Um, but don't work alone.

Um, you don't need to be there because it is very isolating and it

can be quite depressing sometimes when you're by yourself all the time.

So don't, don't feel like you're ever alone.

that really resonates with me.

I, and I also, I feel that this is an opportunity for me to make a shameless

plug that the Architecture Business Club will be opening its doors to

some new members in early 2025.

So, please keep an eye out for that.

And I will talk about that in no doubt in future podcast episodes.

So, that's going to be something that if you are working in and around

architecture that there's going to be a safe space, a community there for you

that you are able to join to meet people online and occasionally in person too,

where we can work on our businesses together and help and support each other.

So that's something that I'm really excited about.

The feedback from the founding members so far has been absolutely

incredible, so I'm looking forward to seeing where that goes in 2025.

Oh, such a great idea.

Yeah, I think so.

Andrew, was there anything else that you wanted to add that

we haven't covered already?

Oh my gosh, what else have we not covered?

Um, I can't think of anything else.

Um, do you know what?

I think Going back, actually, if you want to ask, I'll start again.

Going back to the first few questions and conversations at the

top when we're thinking of creative ways for marketing yourself, um,

effectively, I'd say newsletters.

I've just, well, I've been using MyLib newsletter for the last couple

of years and it's, um, I think it's so underutilized, a form of marketing

that people forget it's there and you can set newsletters up for free.

Um, there's, uh, there's MailChimp, there's MailerLite, there's Qt.

I'm not, you know, I'm not advocating any of those or promoting any of those.

I'm just saying that they're out there and starter packs for them are free.

Um, it's, what's the word?

It's an easy way for you to create content that you want to be heard for and it's

not, It cuts through, I suppose, some of the noise on social media because

you're going directly into their inbox.

Don't, I know there's a lot of email marketers out there

that send emails every day.

I normally unsubscribe from those, um, because I can't take it every day.

But if it's every week or every other week, mine comes out every month, I can

just about handle that, you know, and you, and you get to know people and you get

to find out what they're about and what they do and how they sell their services.

And if people say, Oh, I don't know what to talk about.

There's always something to talk about.

Start with a story.

Tell people about who you are and what you do and tell that story.

So I start with my newsletter, um, I'm going to be, my shameless

plug now, um, Font Love Friday and other designery things.

I always start the beginning of my newsletter with a little bit

of a story and then I'll tie in a font or something designery around

that, but people always like.

People do mail me and say, Oh, that's so cool.

Or I didn't know you did that.

Or I'm going to tell my friend about that.

And then, or I'm going to put this person in touch with that person.

I'm like, wow, to see what the power of a newsletter did.

Yeah.

to mind that I will, again, I usually start with a short

story and it's usually just what is like the most interesting thing that

I did that week, something like that.

So something a little bit personal and then it will sort

of segue into something of value.

So you shall then just usually share the podcast episode

and maybe some key takeaways.

And then it will just usually end with.

Some kind of call to action.

So it might just be to book a chat with me or to tell your friends about

the newsletter, you know, see if they want to sign up, or it might be that

if I've got a product or a service that we're in the process of launching

that you go and click here and learn more or sign up, that sort of thing.

So it's pretty simple, really.

Um, And it is, you know, it's a good way to kind of stay in touch with people.

Cool.

So, Angela, there's one other question that I wanted to ask, and

it's nothing to do with freelancing.

I love to travel and to discover new places, and I was just wondering if you

could tell me about one of your favourite places and what you love about it.

That's so hard.

Yeah, I know, just one, but it can be near or far.

It doesn't have to, doesn't have to be somewhere exotic if you don't want to.

It could just be the end of the street.

That's really hard because I have so many.

you know what?

It's going to be exotic.

It's going to be St.

Lucia.

And that's where my parents are from.

And I went when I was 12 years old for the first time and I was just blown away.

First of all, I was blown away by the heat.

I got off the plane, I didn't even get off the plane.

I was like, what is this heat?

And then I got off the plane, met my family and saw the beauty

of the land, the sea colour.

Um, the people are just so, just warm.

Um, there's a rainforest, if you want to go and explore that.

There's um, a non active volcano.

And um, it's just such a beautiful island.

It's so small, it's such a tiny little island.

I mean we travel thousands of miles away from England to get there.

But you can go around St Lucia in a day.

You literally can.

You can drive around it in a day, which I have done before.

Um, but there's various points where you see different islands, different

Caribbean islands, and it's just, it's so green and the sea is aqua

blue and I just, I, I've got family there still, um, and I just love it.

I just love St Lucia.

And I know also Hotel Chocolat.

I've got their hotel there.

I haven't quite got the budget to go to that yet, but maybe one day.

Um, but yeah, I was, um, It was so hard picking St Lucia, but I'd say

that has to be the one because it's my um, It's my heritage and my home.

Yeah.

amazing.

It's like we're recording this in December and it's quite kind

of dreary and grey outside.

And, um, yeah, just thinking about that kind of warm Caribbean

sun and the sand and the sea.

Oh, yeah.

food the fruits, the fish.

It's just, oh, the rum.

Right.

I need to kind of get on the, the travel agent site now

and just, uh, get that books.

I'm not sure what my wife would say, you know, where's our savings gone?

Don't worry.

We're going to the Caribbean.

The kids and dog will look after themselves.

Brilliant.

So Ange, um, if people would like to connect with you, where would

be the best place to do that?

Yeah, sure.

Um, LinkedIn, I'd love if they want to connect on LinkedIn,

um, more than happy to.

If you send me a, if you do connect with me, tell me, um,

how you, where you heard me.

So tell me about this podcast.

Um, and my website is lionscreative.

co.

uk.

Bye.

And you can also sign up to my newsletter if you're interested.

Um, and that comes out again, I won't bombard you.

It's, um, once a month and it's on fonts and designery things and a little bit

about me and a little bit of my work.

So yeah, those are, I'm also on Instagram and that's ange underscore lions.

Um, where I post stories of what I've been up to.

Well, I'm going to post this podcast actually in a minute.

Ah, I'll

Again, perfect marketing just to say if you want to be on

podcasts or talk to people or You know, tell people what you've been

up to, it's a good place to be.

Brilliant.

Oh, thanks so much, Ange.

Oh, thank you so much John for having me, I've really enjoyed it,

really enjoyed our chat and um, it's such a great topic to talk about and

um, I'm glad you've highlighted it, so thank you and thank you for having me.

You're welcome.

Next time I chat with copywriter, Allie Sr, about PR.

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