What is Succession Planning & Why Does It Matter with Kevin Crawford | 120
Jon Clayton hosts Architecture Business Club with guest Kevin Crawford, an architecture practice leader with 20+ years’ experience who implemented a succession plan at Crawford Architecture via a transition to employee ownership. They define succession planning as future-proofing the business, protecting legacy, and ensuring continuity if the owner retires, can’t work, or dies, noting many practices delay it until it becomes urgent. Kevin shares how waiting until his father was around 70 created pressure and highlights why planning matters for owners, families, staff career paths, valuation, and avoiding rushed sales to the wrong buyer. They discuss that succession planning applies to all firms, including sole practitioners, and stress the need to take time away from day-to-day work, use structured planning (including ideas from the book “Traction”), clarify roles, communicate a shared vision, and maintain discipline.
Today’s Guest
Kevin Crawford is an architecture practice leader with over 20 years of experience running and growing a practice, before putting a succession plan in place through a transition to employee ownership. Today, he’s the founder of Designing Success and co-founder of ASC and Pilotis, where he helps architecture practice leaders design better businesses — gaining more clarity, time and freedom, while strengthening the person behind the practice.
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Episode Highlights
00:00 Introduction
00:46 Meet Kevin Crawford
01:20 Why This Topic Now
01:40 Defining Succession Planning
02:15 Planning For Inevitability
02:49 Family Firm Backstory
03:58 New Ventures Plan From Day One
04:33 Ostrich To Eagle Mindset
05:18 Forced Change And Complexity
05:39 Most Firms Delay This
06:23 Reactive Industry Trap
06:52 Hamster Wheel Workaholism
07:27 Two Year Transition Journey
08:03 Balancing Three Stakeholders
08:29 Protecting The Legacy
08:48 Choosing Employee Ownership
09:36 Others Still Ignore It
10:18 Why Succession Matters
10:42 Time With Family Motivation
12:34 Shared Vision And Culture Shift
13:53 Risks Of Leaving It Late
15:28 Is Succession Planning Relevant To Small Firms
16:33 Buying Time To Plan
20:25 Consequences Of Ignoring It
22:36 Collaboration Over Competition
24:24 Where To Start Today
24:49 Frameworks And Reflection
26:21 Discipline And Weekly Structure
27:41 Key Takeaways
29:26 Employee Ownership Realities
30:31 Must Have Business Resource
30:51 Project Management Game Changer
32:02 Connect With Kevin
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Key Takeaways
Don't put it off — start thinking about succession planning now.
It's easy to say "I'll deal with it later," but Kevin learned the hard way that waiting too long makes everything harder. His dad was 70 before they started planning, and by then it was stressful for the whole family. Even if you're not ready to act right now, you should at least start thinking about what happens to your business when you're no longer running it.
You need to make time to work on your business, not just in it.
Kevin used to think working longer hours was the answer. He'd start at 4am and work until midnight. But that didn't help him plan for the future — it just kept him stuck on the hamster wheel. The real change came when he stepped away from the day-to-day and gave himself proper time to think. You need to block out time in your week to focus on the bigger picture, even if it's just a couple of hours on a Friday.
Succession planning matters no matter how big or small your practice is.
You might think this only applies to large firms, but Kevin says it's just as important for sole practitioners. If your business depends entirely on you, what happens if you can't work? Who looks after your projects and your clients? Having a plan in place protects you, your team, and the legacy you've built — whether you're a one-person studio or a team of twenty.
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00:00 - Introduction
00:46 - Meet Kevin Crawford
01:20 - Why This Topic Now
01:40 - Defining Succession Planning
02:15 - Planning For Inevitability
02:49 - Family Firm Backstory
03:58 - New Ventures Plan From Day One
04:33 - Ostrich To Eagle Mindset
05:18 - Forced Change And Complexity
05:39 - Most Firms Delay This
06:23 - Reactive Industry Trap
06:52 - Hamster Wheel Workaholism
07:27 - Two Year Transition Journey
08:03 - Balancing Three Stakeholders
08:29 - Protecting The Legacy
08:48 - Choosing Employee Ownership
09:36 - Others Still Ignore It
10:18 - Why Succession Matters
10:42 - Time With Family Motivation
12:34 - Shared Vision And Culture Shift
13:53 - Risks Of Leaving It Late
15:28 - Is Succession Planning Relevant To Small Firms
17:06 - Buying Time To Plan
20:58 - Consequences Of Ignoring It
23:09 - Collaboration Over Competition
24:57 - Where To Start Today
25:22 - Frameworks And Reflection
26:54 - Discipline And Weekly Structure
28:14 - Key Takeaways
29:59 - Employee Ownership Realities
31:04 - Must Have Business Resource
31:24 - Project Management Game Changer
32:35 - Connect With Kevin
Jon Clayton:
If you are unable to come to work for six months,
Jon Clayton:
who would run your business?
Jon Clayton:
What will happen to your business when you retire or if you unexpectedly passed away.
Jon Clayton:
In this episode, we're talking about succession planning.
Jon Clayton:
You'll learn what succession planning is, why it should matter to you, what happens
Jon Clayton:
if you ignore it, and stick around to the end to learn how to get started with
Jon Clayton:
succession planning in your business.
Jon Clayton:
Welcome to Architecture Business Club, the show that helps you build
Jon Clayton:
a better business in architecture so you can enjoy more freedom,
Jon Clayton:
flexibility, and fulfillment.
Jon Clayton:
I am John Clayton, your host, and if you're joining us for the first time,
Jon Clayton:
don't forget to hit the subscribe button so you'd never miss another episode.
Jon Clayton:
We are joined by Kevin Crawford.
Jon Clayton:
An architecture practice leader with over 20 years of experience running
Jon Clayton:
and growing a practice before putting a succession plan in place through a
Jon Clayton:
transition to employee ownership today, he's the founder of Designing Success and
Jon Clayton:
co-founder of the Architectural Survey Company and Pilotis, where he helps
Jon Clayton:
architecture practice leaders design better businesses, gaining more clarity,
Jon Clayton:
time, and freedom, while strengthening the person behind the practice.
Jon Clayton:
To connect with Kevin on LinkedIn, just click the link in the show notes.
Jon Clayton:
So we, We are gonna talk about succession planning, so that you can build a
Jon Clayton:
more resilient architecture practice.
Jon Clayton:
Um, this is a really important topic and it's something that we
Jon Clayton:
haven't covered on the show before.
Jon Clayton:
So, um, when the opportunity came up to, to talk with you about this, Kevin, um,
Jon Clayton:
I thought this would be really valuable for us to share with the audience.
Jon Clayton:
So, just to start with the basics.
Jon Clayton:
What is succession planning?
Kevin Crawford:
It's future proofing, uh, the business.
Kevin Crawford:
It's protecting legacies.
Kevin Crawford:
It's, um, it's ensuring that the business continues, um, without you at some stage.
Kevin Crawford:
It's something that we certainly.
Kevin Crawford:
Didn't take notice of until it was too late.
Kevin Crawford:
Well, not too late, but very late in the day.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and it's just something that, yeah, I just encourage everybody to, to look into,
Kevin Crawford:
uh, because it's a massive, massive thing.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and if it's left too late, it can obviously cause problems.
Jon Clayton:
Okay, so, so this is really planning for the eventuality.
Jon Clayton:
An inevitability in many ways that you as the leader of the practice,
Jon Clayton:
you are not gonna be around forever.
Jon Clayton:
So it could be that you are unexpectedly unable to work.
Jon Clayton:
It could be that you want to retire, we all gonna pass away at some point.
Jon Clayton:
Hopefully we've still got a few years left on the clock between us.
Jon Clayton:
Um, but it's planning for those eventualities to ensure
Jon Clayton:
that the business can still.
Jon Clayton:
Thrive.
Jon Clayton:
Um, without you or without you, the key people within your team.
Kevin Crawford:
At Crawford Architecture, it was maybe slightly,
Kevin Crawford:
uh, well, probably not unique, but, uh, it was a family business.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, my dad started in 1987 and we always, we always.
Kevin Crawford:
Mentioned it from time to time, but it was something that a younger me
Kevin Crawford:
just thought I was traditionally told.
Kevin Crawford:
My dad was traditionally told that, you know, these things sort
Kevin Crawford:
themselves out at retirement age.
Kevin Crawford:
And we said, you know, we'll get a, a meal, a coffee, a drink, whatever it was.
Kevin Crawford:
We, we'll, we'll sort it sometime.
Kevin Crawford:
And they, they didn't feel like there was any panic, any rush.
Kevin Crawford:
Um.
Kevin Crawford:
And then my dad got to, uh, 70, uh, probably 70th birthday.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, I was just, uh, touching 40 and what, what, what do we do?
Kevin Crawford:
What, what actually happens here?
Kevin Crawford:
Um, we also had a lot of long serving, uh, team members at Crawford
Kevin Crawford:
Architecture probably sitting there in the wings wondering, you know, is
Kevin Crawford:
their career pathways, what, what's going to happen to the business?
Kevin Crawford:
we we're very late in the day.
Kevin Crawford:
We were of the opinion that this just sorts itself out when my dad
Kevin Crawford:
wants to take a real step back.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and I found out that it's, uh, clearly not that way.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and the other businesses that we've since started, um, which are all
Kevin Crawford:
like an ecosystem of tools for, uh, for practices, but, um, they're all.
Kevin Crawford:
It started with succession plans in place, you know, with, uh, you
Kevin Crawford:
touched on Pelus there with the, the app that we've been developing.
Kevin Crawford:
There was a five year, uh, plan put in place from, from day one, uh, when
Kevin Crawford:
we got the investment to, to do it.
Kevin Crawford:
So, um, we were very much like, I guess, the traditional way of doing things.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, we don't, we don't need that.
Kevin Crawford:
Well, we'll worry, worry about that tomorrow.
Kevin Crawford:
It was definitely a, a, a tomorrow job, you know, keep putting
Kevin Crawford:
it back, keep putting it back.
Kevin Crawford:
And to be honest, I didn't even know what it was.
Kevin Crawford:
I didn't.
Kevin Crawford:
I didn't know what the options were.
Kevin Crawford:
I didn't, I'd never looked into it.
Kevin Crawford:
I was just very much the, uh, and my dad as well, very much the, uh,
Kevin Crawford:
ostrich, you know, buried the head in the sand and, and not become the eagle.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and rise above and have a look down at what's actually happening.
Kevin Crawford:
So I think we, when I look back now, it's great to be able to tell the story,
Kevin Crawford:
but probably not with that in mind.
Kevin Crawford:
But we had.
Kevin Crawford:
Very much put system, strategies, software, all these sorts of things
Kevin Crawford:
in place, which in the end probably made it a lot easier because we had,
Kevin Crawford:
you know, we'd looked at, um, people in certain roles and, one year plans,
Kevin Crawford:
three year plans, things like that.
Kevin Crawford:
But we hadn't actually looked to the actual succession.
Kevin Crawford:
Bear in mind that I was only 40, um, you know, which clearly I didn't.
Kevin Crawford:
Plan to, to do what we've done at 40.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and it was probably forced upon us because of my dad's age and his situation
Kevin Crawford:
for, uh, for what he was going to do.
Kevin Crawford:
So, um, yeah, it's an interesting one, but it's, it's complex as well.
Jon Clayton:
Absolutely.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah, I think the.
Jon Clayton:
The situation that you described, or at least how it you, how it was before
Jon Clayton:
that you'd gone through this process, that that sort of, uh, manana, you know,
Jon Clayton:
we'll, we'll leave it for another day.
Jon Clayton:
We won't worry about it.
Jon Clayton:
I mean, that must be the sort of status quo with, with many,
Jon Clayton:
like majority of practices.
Jon Clayton:
I would think that it is something that.
Jon Clayton:
I think thinking that far ahead can be a bit uncomfortable for people, you
Jon Clayton:
know, thinking about coming to terms with the fact that they may not be
Jon Clayton:
around forever and that they do have to think about, you know, what is the
Jon Clayton:
exit plan or the strategy for sort of passing the reins onto somebody else.
Jon Clayton:
You know, how will this business continue?
Jon Clayton:
Um, and that's probably quite scary for a lot of people to think about.
Kevin Crawford:
Yeah, very much so because.
Kevin Crawford:
The industry, um, it's very much reactive.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, I think reactive is one of the main problems that, that certainly we had
Kevin Crawford:
in the practice for a long time, and that, without going down that topic,
Kevin Crawford:
but, you know, that's like when people are reactive to, to every request,
Kevin Crawford:
teams, clients, projects, uh, emails, um, but it's like, just deal with the,
Kevin Crawford:
the fire in front of you at the moment.
Kevin Crawford:
And my personal experience, which is.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, yeah, it, it's nice to speak about it now, but I wish I'd obviously known what
Kevin Crawford:
I knew now all these years ago because I, I thought by spinning the hamster wheel
Kevin Crawford:
faster and harder, I thought by going in at 4:00 AM and working till midnight.
Kevin Crawford:
Don't get me wrong, I always came home and, uh, you know, I had time with the
Kevin Crawford:
kids, but as soon as they were in bed, I was back to it and I was, my approach was.
Kevin Crawford:
Work more hours.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, that, that was my original plan, uh, which probably
Kevin Crawford:
relates with a lot of people.
Kevin Crawford:
but obviously since then, uh, clearly that wasn't the, the way to do it.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and then we needed the right people in the right seats and we
Kevin Crawford:
needed, uh, all these systems and strategies and things in place and, uh.
Kevin Crawford:
Yeah, heading towards the, um, the all up my goal, which
Kevin Crawford:
was the succession planning.
Kevin Crawford:
But there's, even with that, I think it was a two year, uh, a two year,
Kevin Crawford:
challenge, basically from the minute I started looking into it, to when we
Kevin Crawford:
actually did the, uh, the transition.
Kevin Crawford:
So it's a long, it's not something we're gonna take lightly, obviously.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, it's a massive, massive decision and potentially even more so because.
Kevin Crawford:
My mom and dad were involved and, and it was their retirement as well.
Kevin Crawford:
So it's not just me.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, so I kinda had a double, uh, a double pressure, if you like.
Kevin Crawford:
I need to look after, well, it's three.
Kevin Crawford:
It was three ways because it was, I had to get a solution that worked for.
Kevin Crawford:
My mom and dad in retirement for myself and my family, and also the,
Kevin Crawford:
the team at, at Crawford Architecture, you know, a lot of them, like
Kevin Crawford:
I said, have been long serving.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but, but the whole team, you know, how did, how did what my dad started
Kevin Crawford:
in 1987, and I've obviously contributed to, you know, to over the last 20 years.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, how did we protect that legacy?
Kevin Crawford:
How did we ensure that the company kept going?
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and what was the best, the best outcome?
Kevin Crawford:
There was probably three options.
Kevin Crawford:
and we just chose, yeah, employee ownership and.
Kevin Crawford:
It was, it's exciting.
Kevin Crawford:
It's, it's not without its challenges clearly I don't think anything is,
Kevin Crawford:
there's no overnight successes.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, something that's built over 39 years in my dad's case, but
Kevin Crawford:
obviously in my case, I went as a 14-year-old after school.
Kevin Crawford:
So I've been involved in the practice for 27 years.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, probably, certainly 15 to 20 of them in the managerial role.
Kevin Crawford:
And obviously the latterly 10, 15 years pretty much, you know, in that, um.
Kevin Crawford:
A role of, of managing a team of architects and technologists and admin and
Kevin Crawford:
finance and everything that goes with it.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, so there's a lot to think about.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but it's, that was our choice.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but the people, a lot of people I also work, um, and, and speak to
Kevin Crawford:
a lot of, uh, different practices nowadays, and I just find it really
Kevin Crawford:
interesting because the majority haven't.
Kevin Crawford:
Looked at this, uh, don't know anything about it, and probably
Kevin Crawford:
do think it's for a, a rainy day.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, I used to think we were alone.
Kevin Crawford:
I used to think, why do we not have this in place?
Kevin Crawford:
And I think probably my dad would agree with me, um, probably from
Kevin Crawford:
his side because he's my dad.
Kevin Crawford:
He probably felt that he wishes he'd done it, but hey, everything's
Kevin Crawford:
there to become a story, isn't it?
Kevin Crawford:
So we didn't have it in place and that was just how it was.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but now we do, and it's a lot of hard work,
Jon Clayton:
So we, we've talked around this a little bit, but
Jon Clayton:
why, why does this matter?
Jon Clayton:
You know, could we talk a little bit about the, the why
Jon Clayton:
about why this is so important?
Kevin Crawford:
Yeah, I think, um, why it's so important is because, like
Kevin Crawford:
you say, there, welcome a day, um, when somebody either wants to retire
Kevin Crawford:
or somebody wants to go part-time or somebody wants to spend more time.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, for me, I, I actually, I clearly didn't want to retire, um, at 40.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but what I did want to do was have a, um, like so, so Cammy being 11.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, in particular got Charlie Ben eight as well, but at 11 years old, I kinda looked
Kevin Crawford:
at that spell for the next five to seven years, you know, being, uh, as a kid,
Kevin Crawford:
um, until he, you know, he is, uh, maybe not wanting so much to, to do with us.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, so I looked at that and I felt that I just wanted to, my main goal
Kevin Crawford:
here was to enjoy my, my role doing what I do, but, um, being, being
Kevin Crawford:
present, being, being present for them.
Kevin Crawford:
And that was, uh.
Kevin Crawford:
I didn't want to go and take on another five to seven, 10 year plan to just pay my
Kevin Crawford:
dad for his, we were 50 50 shareholders.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, so if I went with a 5, 7, 10 year plan to buy my dad's 50%, I would then be.
Kevin Crawford:
financially tied to doing that for that period of time, I would then be
Kevin Crawford:
able to turn around to call me at 18, Charlie at 15, um, and say, guess what?
Kevin Crawford:
Dad owns a hundred percent of a business and I might have
Kevin Crawford:
been nearer 50 by that time.
Kevin Crawford:
And then I think, you know, what, what am I going to do with it?
Kevin Crawford:
You know?
Kevin Crawford:
So I would then just be back to, I would've went through all that to
Kevin Crawford:
then not have a plan for myself.
Kevin Crawford:
So, um, I think.
Kevin Crawford:
I'm lucky.
Kevin Crawford:
I feel lucky.
Kevin Crawford:
I was, you know, a lot of stress, a lot of, uh, a lot of tough times in
Kevin Crawford:
there, um, mentally, is it everything?
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, it's really, really tough.
Kevin Crawford:
But, um, I think it's so important because you need a, it's like anything,
Kevin Crawford:
you need a plan in place, don't you, you know, for, for most things.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and a plan for the business is one thing, but the succession
Kevin Crawford:
plan is a, a major thing.
Kevin Crawford:
And I think for the rest of the team as well, because they now, um.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, two people were made, uh, directors, there was a, you know,
Kevin Crawford:
a design director, a commercial director came out of that.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, there was two people became directors of an EOT board.
Kevin Crawford:
And it's the little things that people almost, you know, I, I like how they
Kevin Crawford:
speak about we, as opposed to, they used to say, I work for Kev, um, or John.
Kevin Crawford:
And I always used to connect them saying, well, you work, we work
Kevin Crawford:
together as a team and we probably installed like an employee.
Kevin Crawford:
Ownership model if you like, or attitude or culture.
Kevin Crawford:
Culture's the word actually, um, in the team previously.
Kevin Crawford:
But I think with doing what we're doing, it shows that it's not just about us.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, it's about the, the wider team.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and that shared vision that I speak about a lot with the coaching and the
Kevin Crawford:
events that I've been doing, you know, that shared vision was, is massive.
Kevin Crawford:
I had a vision in my head, um, and.
Kevin Crawford:
I didn't communicate that vision with anybody.
Kevin Crawford:
So how, when I look back now, people were just doing what we were like
Kevin Crawford:
asking them to do and nobody really knew what they were striving for.
Kevin Crawford:
Like, where are we, where are we going with this business?
Kevin Crawford:
What are we trying to, to do?
Kevin Crawford:
What's the, what's the goal?
Kevin Crawford:
What's the five year plan?
Kevin Crawford:
10 year plan, 15 year plan.
Kevin Crawford:
20 year plan?
Kevin Crawford:
So, um, I guess it's going back to the original question.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, why, why it matters so much is because if it's left too late either.
Kevin Crawford:
It nothing like you, you, if you leave it too late, you're
Kevin Crawford:
almost relying on somebody buying your, your business, I guess.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and how, how do you do that?
Kevin Crawford:
And somebody is not just probably going to pick up the phone and say, I'll give
Kevin Crawford:
you X amount for, for your business.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, so there's a valuation, um, of the business goes into that.
Kevin Crawford:
I guess even at that stage, if it's not planned properly and
Kevin Crawford:
it's a bit rash, then you could.
Kevin Crawford:
Either sell it for the wrong price or to the wrong people and then
Kevin Crawford:
the team maybe don't, you know, um, follow the new owner's, uh, guidance.
Kevin Crawford:
And I dunno, there's, there could just be a range of problems.
Kevin Crawford:
So, um, certainly in my case, it was definitely something
Kevin Crawford:
that was for another day.
Kevin Crawford:
But when that other day came, I just wish I'd done it previously.
Kevin Crawford:
But at the end of the day, it was probably.
Kevin Crawford:
Well, my dad was 70.
Kevin Crawford:
I certainly wouldn't advise doing it when you're 70.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but even at 40, I would've loved if I'd had a plan in place for me starting
Kevin Crawford:
basically at as soon as we started, as soon as I was brought into the practice.
Kevin Crawford:
But certainly for people who are, maybe the practice is not, um, that
Kevin Crawford:
old, um, or new startups or somebody who's maybe thinking about, right.
Kevin Crawford:
Okay.
Kevin Crawford:
I'm thinking about five, 10 years down the line here because.
Kevin Crawford:
Certainly with the employee ownership, that's a, you know, that's a, a five
Kevin Crawford:
to seven year plan, you know, so it, it does take me, um, you know,
Kevin Crawford:
five, seven years down the line.
Kevin Crawford:
It's not instant.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and yeah, it's just so important.
Jon Clayton:
Do you think succession planning is relevant to all practice
Jon Clayton:
owners, like even sole practitioners?
Jon Clayton:
Does it matter about the size of practice?
Jon Clayton:
Should we all be thinking about this?
Kevin Crawford:
So through design success now where we are, um.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, being, being certainly relatable over impressive,
Kevin Crawford:
the, the, the journey at times.
Kevin Crawford:
But, um, we, you know, have chats.
Kevin Crawford:
Look at the biggest challenges facing, uh, sole practitioners, um, up to
Kevin Crawford:
teams with, you know, maybe 15, 20, uh, people and everything in between.
Kevin Crawford:
And a lot of the times, some of the, the, the challenges are the same.
Kevin Crawford:
Clearly there'll be some different ones depending on team sizes, but I think.
Kevin Crawford:
I would say yes.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, like ev every business is a, is a business and especially if
Kevin Crawford:
you're a, a sole practitioner, because then it's solely dependent on you.
Kevin Crawford:
So what happens if, if you go, uh, like what is the plan?
Kevin Crawford:
Whatever, do the projects go who, you know?
Kevin Crawford:
So there's, there's got to be plans in place.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, or at least thinking about them.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, I'm not gonna sit and say that everybody needs to do it
Kevin Crawford:
right now, but you need to at least start thinking about it.
Kevin Crawford:
And for the thinking about it, you need time.
Kevin Crawford:
And one of the things that I used to say was, I don't have time.
Kevin Crawford:
Like I don't have time for, for anything.
Kevin Crawford:
And now, um, so I work with, with Jason Graystone and he is my mentor and,
Kevin Crawford:
and his, um, his business always free.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, his, um, saying is that time's your greatest asset?
Kevin Crawford:
And it is always stuck with me because I always devalued my time.
Kevin Crawford:
I always said that I don't have time and now.
Kevin Crawford:
I don't say I have time just to do anything I want, but you choose
Kevin Crawford:
your time more wisely and you appreciate the value of that time.
Kevin Crawford:
Um.
Kevin Crawford:
And the reason I say that is because to get that succession plan and in place,
Kevin Crawford:
it needed time, it needed time out of the business, um, away from the day to day.
Kevin Crawford:
And it's funny because some of the events that we've held late lately, we'll have
Kevin Crawford:
people, uh, sign up for the event and um, then on the day we'll get an email
Kevin Crawford:
saying, sorry, I just don't have time.
Kevin Crawford:
And, uh, like I think a big, big, big part of the event is to try.
Kevin Crawford:
Get people more time, more focused, uh, more structure to your day, to your
Kevin Crawford:
week, um, to actually buy yourself time.
Kevin Crawford:
And for us it was actually, uh, traction.
Kevin Crawford:
So any, any listeners that, that like reading books?
Kevin Crawford:
Um, traction by Geno Wickman was a massive one for me.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, I read that and probably, um.
Kevin Crawford:
When I look back, I've, I've read a lot of books and my problem that
Kevin Crawford:
I had at the time was that I didn't implement what I'd learned and then
Kevin Crawford:
I, I began to learn to implement what I'd learned before I moved on to the
Kevin Crawford:
next thing, which was a big thing.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but traction certainly gave me the foundation for, for how,
Kevin Crawford:
how I was laying out the business.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, one of the things.
Kevin Crawford:
Interaction is about getting, uh, focused days away, uh, from the business,
Kevin Crawford:
um, and me and my business partner.
Kevin Crawford:
Long story short, we went to, we decided to go to 10 Reef for three days, and
Kevin Crawford:
clearly that was challenging tradition.
Kevin Crawford:
Like, why should somebody who's so busy be able to go to 10 Reef?
Kevin Crawford:
We had people saying that that's not right.
Kevin Crawford:
We had people saying it was just a holiday.
Kevin Crawford:
We had people, you know, everybody doubted it, but.
Kevin Crawford:
I had a plan and I set out the three days.
Kevin Crawford:
And the three days started with, um, getting a two hour walk in the morning,
Kevin Crawford:
you know, at six 30 in the morning, um, getting, you know, a circa 14,
Kevin Crawford:
15,000 steps in before breakfast.
Kevin Crawford:
We then had an agenda.
Kevin Crawford:
One of these obviously been succession planning, um, but we also had data,
Kevin Crawford:
you know, how, how do we start.
Kevin Crawford:
Looking at data in the business, how do we analyze rather than,
Kevin Crawford:
uh, base things on emotion?
Kevin Crawford:
How do we base it on, uh, the actual, um, data that, that, that we're getting?
Kevin Crawford:
Um, how do we just basically try to solve everything, all the challenges
Kevin Crawford:
in the business in that three days?
Kevin Crawford:
We did that, we had an agenda all day.
Kevin Crawford:
We went for a nice meal at at night, and we did that repeat three times.
Kevin Crawford:
and now with design success, we're doing that with practice owners.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, it's taking a small group away, uh, for two, three days.
Kevin Crawford:
People that have previously said, I don't have time.
Kevin Crawford:
I, I don't have time to do that because I'm too busy in the business.
Kevin Crawford:
But you need to like buy time to get time and, and until people fully appreciate
Kevin Crawford:
that, um, it can be so powerful.
Kevin Crawford:
So, um, yeah, there's, there's a lot to a lot on that angle.
Kevin Crawford:
Just getting yourself away from that day to day to, to be able to do this.
Jon Clayton:
Absolutely.
Jon Clayton:
I love that idea.
Jon Clayton:
I think it's, um, a great idea.
Jon Clayton:
I think the.
Jon Clayton:
A change of environment can make su such a huge difference to your mindset
Jon Clayton:
and you know, how you approach things.
Jon Clayton:
For sure.
Jon Clayton:
So having something like that where you had like, um, a work trip away that was
Jon Clayton:
very focused, working on the business like that, that's such a great idea.
Jon Clayton:
what, what problems can occur later down the line if we ignore this, if this, the.
Jon Clayton:
Classic thing that, let's be honest, most businesses, most small
Jon Clayton:
businesses are right now probably ignoring succession planning.
Jon Clayton:
Um, what are some of the problems that you've come across that
Jon Clayton:
can occur when you do ignore it?
Kevin Crawford:
the immediate thing that springs to mind is there, is there's
Kevin Crawford:
actually problems both sides of it, so.
Kevin Crawford:
The problems, this side of it, in my case, certainly were the, um,
Kevin Crawford:
you know, we, we've lucky, lucky the family relationship, the family, family
Kevin Crawford:
dynamics and we've always got on and things, but it tests, uh, it, it, it
Kevin Crawford:
becomes, it's strange relationships, um, because thankfully we've got that back.
Kevin Crawford:
It was temporary, but there's times in there where we don't, nobody was
Kevin Crawford:
really sure what was happening and, um.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, what is employee ownership?
Kevin Crawford:
What, how does it look?
Kevin Crawford:
You know, I can't just, I couldn't just go and buy like 50% shares off
Kevin Crawford:
my dad because there was no planning.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, so I think there can be a lot of, um, problems this side of it as well.
Kevin Crawford:
also, like if it's not planned and you are, say you were just
Kevin Crawford:
selling the business, you're relying on somebody having the
Kevin Crawford:
capital to go and buy the business.
Kevin Crawford:
On the other side of it for us on employee ownership.
Kevin Crawford:
There then comes the challenges as well, because you've got to explain
Kevin Crawford:
obviously, what it is, what it means for the team, um, that it's a, it's
Kevin Crawford:
a longer term plan, um, and everybody needs to understand what the plan is.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, obviously people don't, we don't need everybody becoming
Kevin Crawford:
owners as the title suggests.
Kevin Crawford:
It's like, um.
Kevin Crawford:
I don't know the analogy of a a, a football team.
Kevin Crawford:
Everybody plays different positions.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, somebody's the chairman, somebody's the director,
Kevin Crawford:
somebody's the, the, the manager.
Kevin Crawford:
Somebody's the striker, somebody's the defender, somebody's the goalkeeper.
Kevin Crawford:
And if we all do our roles well then the practice is, uh, successful
Kevin Crawford:
and, and, and moves forward.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, so role definitions became massive as well with it.
Kevin Crawford:
But, um, there's, there's challenges.
Kevin Crawford:
I've yet to speak to anybody who says, uh, business is easy.
Kevin Crawford:
Um.
Kevin Crawford:
I think we, we touched on the, uh, dent Global ski trip that I was, I was
Kevin Crawford:
on in February there, and you had 84 entrepreneurs on the, the ski trip,
Kevin Crawford:
and what I loved about that, I'd never skied in my life by the way, but, um,
Kevin Crawford:
what I loved about it was you had.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, entrepreneurs, business owners, all sitting.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, like I say, there was, there was no egos in there.
Kevin Crawford:
So Daniel Priestley's motto, there was, um, being relatable over impressive
Kevin Crawford:
but it was everybody speaking about the challenges in business and we
Kevin Crawford:
all face challenges in business.
Kevin Crawford:
So, without deviating too much from succession planning.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, I just felt that we were in an industry, there was no collaboration.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, everybody felt, you know, you can't speak to another practice
Kevin Crawford:
because they're a rival or something.
Kevin Crawford:
But, um, that's how I was brought up and some of the best conversations
Kevin Crawford:
that that have happened have been coffees with, uh, other people
Kevin Crawford:
living the same journey because, you know, we can all help each other.
Kevin Crawford:
We all share the same problems.
Kevin Crawford:
And, and these events that we've been doing, um.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, nice numbers, uh, 2015 people all just let's,
Kevin Crawford:
what's your biggest challenges?
Kevin Crawford:
And you'll, you'll notice that a lot of the time people actually
Kevin Crawford:
start collaborating with each other.
Kevin Crawford:
So, you know, I, I had that challenge, but I overcome it and
Kevin Crawford:
I learn all the time as well.
Kevin Crawford:
And there's a really nice thing that I'm, I'm finding through
Kevin Crawford:
collaboration and, um, just about respect to each other's businesses.
Kevin Crawford:
And how did, how did you deal with this?
Kevin Crawford:
So, I think collaboration's another, another big one
Kevin Crawford:
for people to, to consider.
Jon Clayton:
Absolutely.
Jon Clayton:
I'm a big believer in that.
Jon Clayton:
And, um, we could do a whole other episode or a whole series
Jon Clayton:
just around that for, for.
Jon Clayton:
Uh, for sure.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah.
Jon Clayton:
Yeah.
Jon Clayton:
There's a lot of mileage in that one.
Kevin Crawford:
Yeah.
Jon Clayton:
Um, that's been, that's been really interesting though
Jon Clayton:
for you to share that as well.
Jon Clayton:
As you say, it's a little bit of an aside to the succession planning.
Jon Clayton:
Um, bringing it back to that though, where do you suggest we start with it?
Jon Clayton:
If we want to start thinking about succession planning,
Jon Clayton:
where should we begin?
Kevin Crawford:
I think it's back to the, the same point
Kevin Crawford:
that we spoke about earlier.
Kevin Crawford:
It's, it's, it's just giving yourself time, giving yourself at least a, a
Kevin Crawford:
day or two away from the, the business.
Kevin Crawford:
Um.
Kevin Crawford:
To think about that looking back, could I have done it?
Kevin Crawford:
Um, I, I touched on right at the start that had a back operation, okay.
Kevin Crawford:
And that, that forced me to stop, um, for a, for a good period of time.
Kevin Crawford:
Like, clearly I couldn't do my early mornings and my late nights, and
Kevin Crawford:
I, I couldn't really do anything.
Kevin Crawford:
So that forced me to stop.
Kevin Crawford:
And that's where I started implementing my two frameworks.
Kevin Crawford:
Now that I, I use, um.
Kevin Crawford:
So the, the first framework's personal, it's the person behind the practice,
Kevin Crawford:
but the second one's the, uh, the, the business, the five pillars of business.
Kevin Crawford:
And in that, there's a, there's, there's part of it that's about not forcing
Kevin Crawford:
anybody, but encouraging, advising, um, people to take time, uh, time outta that
Kevin Crawford:
day to just assess what is going on.
Kevin Crawford:
And one of the most powerful exercises I've, I've done, and
Kevin Crawford:
I do it at the events, is just.
Kevin Crawford:
Saying What, what's worked well, you know, what worked well last year?
Kevin Crawford:
What didn't work well last year?
Kevin Crawford:
What's, how's the first quarter of 2026 going, uh, what's the friction?
Kevin Crawford:
What's holding us back?
Kevin Crawford:
What's been the biggest, uh, you know, time wast and things and, and
Kevin Crawford:
looking at all that sort of thing.
Kevin Crawford:
And I think that's maybe where, where to start.
Kevin Crawford:
But, um, it starts with taking time because if you don't take the time and
Kevin Crawford:
you just keep going, you'll, you'll.
Kevin Crawford:
Well, there won't be time to put a, a plan in place, you know?
Kevin Crawford:
So,
Jon Clayton:
It's just recognizing the importance of this and like
Jon Clayton:
making time for the important things like this being one of them.
Jon Clayton:
Um, because otherwise, like everything else just gets in the way and this stuff
Jon Clayton:
doesn't get worked on, uh, unfortunately,
Kevin Crawford:
I think discipline, you know that word discipline comes
Kevin Crawford:
into a lot because it'll always be something that will get in the way.
Kevin Crawford:
And on the health and wellbeing pillar, that's actually become more important
Kevin Crawford:
than I actually ever imagined with the, the people I'm working with as well.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, I always including myself, but there'll always be something that gets
Kevin Crawford:
in the way of your 10,000 steps or your water intake or your sleep, unless you're
Kevin Crawford:
disciplined and you stay consistent.
Kevin Crawford:
And I think all these things, you know, if you're consistent, if you're
Kevin Crawford:
consistent with even dedicating some time.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, there's one of the, the clients just last week that we were looking
Kevin Crawford:
at their, uh, their weekly structure and how they can dedicate time to
Kevin Crawford:
work, um, you know, on the business as opposed to in the business.
Kevin Crawford:
And even just setting whatever it was, two hours on a Friday as a
Kevin Crawford:
starting point or dedicate half a day.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and then that, that if you look at your weekly structure.
Kevin Crawford:
It's amazing if you actually just hold yourself.
Kevin Crawford:
Hopefully, basically it's like putting in a meeting with yourself.
Kevin Crawford:
But, um, then you've got to be accountable for that and don't let it slip.
Kevin Crawford:
'cause there'll always be a client, there'll always be an an email,
Kevin Crawford:
there'll always be a zoom call.
Kevin Crawford:
There'll always be something that could get in the way of it.
Kevin Crawford:
And the longer you do that, it compounds.
Kevin Crawford:
And then before you know it, you, you don't have any plan
Kevin Crawford:
in place and you've just spun.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, for all these, all these months, uh, and years possibly.
Jon Clayton:
what would be the main thing that you want people to
Jon Clayton:
take away from this conversation?
Kevin Crawford:
I think it's probably just a, hopefully just, you know,
Kevin Crawford:
if people are listening to this, you know, out for a. Out for a
Kevin Crawford:
run in the car, wherever they are.
Kevin Crawford:
I think it's hopefully just something that maybe just makes people
Kevin Crawford:
stand up and take notice a bit.
Kevin Crawford:
I think, um, when I've had a, a relationship with my own family, put in
Kevin Crawford:
jeopardy, um, and thankfully it is back.
Kevin Crawford:
We're we're, we're all good.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but you can see how things can be spread and hopefully
Kevin Crawford:
just my, my story being at 42.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, it being forced upon me, um, but actually managing to, to navigate it.
Kevin Crawford:
And, um, I also, I spoke to a lot of people who'd been through
Kevin Crawford:
it, um, the good and the bad and learned a lot from that as well.
Kevin Crawford:
So, NBD yeah, that's what, you know, that's what I'm here for.
Kevin Crawford:
Design success is here for now as well.
Kevin Crawford:
I think succession planning becomes a massive part of that.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, we are clearly not telling, uh, we're clearly not trying to teach architects.
Kevin Crawford:
Uh, how to be architects.
Kevin Crawford:
They're good at that.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, that's what their, that's what their skillset is.
Kevin Crawford:
They're brilliant at, um, being architects.
Kevin Crawford:
But, um, a lot of us are never taught how to run a business, and we're certainly
Kevin Crawford:
not taught how to do succession plans.
Kevin Crawford:
So, um, just leaning on that experience, um, and not leaving it too late.
Kevin Crawford:
So, yeah, hopefully just people, um, not thinking.
Kevin Crawford:
Right.
Kevin Crawford:
I'll just put that on the back burner again.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and at least, um.
Kevin Crawford:
Just doing something about it, even if it's the start of it.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but just a bit of a, a plan.
Kevin Crawford:
And like I say, feel free to reach out if, if anybody wants any advice,
Kevin Crawford:
zoom, call, uh, coffee, whatever.
Jon Clayton:
Mm. That's fantastic.
Jon Clayton:
W was there anything else you wanted to add about the topic
Jon Clayton:
that we haven't already covered?
Kevin Crawford:
Um.
Kevin Crawford:
No, I think we've, we've covered it well, I think, um, like I say, I'm always
Kevin Crawford:
learning with it, and I think unless you do a, uh, a complete buyout and
Kevin Crawford:
you, you're out the, the business, um, certainly for the employee ownership,
Kevin Crawford:
You know, it's quite exciting.
Kevin Crawford:
It's a modern approach.
Kevin Crawford:
There's certainly within architecture and engineering, um, industries,
Kevin Crawford:
it's, it's popular, um, and, and only getting more popular.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but it certainly doesn't come without its challenges.
Kevin Crawford:
I'm not gonna sit here and say that's, uh, um, an absolutely perfect scenario.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, I've still got a lot of work, um, that I do strategy wise with,
Kevin Crawford:
uh, the team at Crawford Architecture because we've built up over 25
Kevin Crawford:
years, um, in there, and it's me.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, I was choosing who does the roles.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, some might work, some might not.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but what's the longer term plan on this?
Kevin Crawford:
Who's gonna step into what role?
Kevin Crawford:
Um, and it's me balancing that with helping others and finding time for
Kevin Crawford:
myself to make sure, uh, that we keep developing the, or developing and just
Kevin Crawford:
helping other practices, you know?
Kevin Crawford:
So, just encourage people to think about it.
Jon Clayton:
I've got one quick question for you, Kevin.
Jon Clayton:
Before we wrap things up, I wanted to ask you, what is one resource
Jon Clayton:
that you use in your business that you couldn't live without?
Jon Clayton:
So this could be a website, could be software, an app, um, a book, a
Jon Clayton:
podcast, anything spring to mind.
Kevin Crawford:
the project management software.
Kevin Crawford:
So in lockdown, we, we, we, that's when we changed over to project
Kevin Crawford:
management software and it was a game changer from folk, um, in the office.
Kevin Crawford:
You know, people throwing a, a message on a paper airplane.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, but now, you know, even post-it shooting instructions over the office.
Kevin Crawford:
Um.
Kevin Crawford:
And me trying, uh, run a business on a bit of paper really.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, so when we went to general project management software, that was where
Kevin Crawford:
I had the idea, uh, to go and build.
Kevin Crawford:
An app, um, I probably wouldn't advise people to go, go down that journey
Kevin Crawford:
because it's a, it was a long process, three years, uh, hell of a lot of
Kevin Crawford:
time and, and everything into it.
Kevin Crawford:
But, um, for me it's the, it's, it's the project management software, which
Kevin Crawford:
is now tis, um, that, that we are, uh, we're, we're only in beta testing
Kevin Crawford:
and we've got, um, we've got people be testing at the moment, but for me it's,
Kevin Crawford:
it's the project management software.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, we had too many apps where we had different time tracking apps and
Kevin Crawford:
different this and different that, and it was about spreadsheets everywhere.
Kevin Crawford:
It's definitely been our project management software over
Kevin Crawford:
the, uh, the last few years.
Kevin Crawford:
Certainly I'd be lost without it.
Kevin Crawford:
I can check it any given time where anything is.
Kevin Crawford:
And, um, yeah, definitely that one.
Jon Clayton:
Kevin, thank you so much for, for joining us today.
Jon Clayton:
Really appreciate you sharing your expertise on the show.
Jon Clayton:
Could you just remind everybody.
Jon Clayton:
Be the best place to connect with you online.
Kevin Crawford:
Yeah, just on LinkedIn really, John.
Kevin Crawford:
Um, yeah, just feel free to drop a message on, uh, on LinkedIn and
Kevin Crawford:
uh, it's probably the best place.
Kevin Crawford:
Happy to have a call.
Kevin Crawford:
Happy to have a chat.
